Joe Rogan Experience #2201 - Robert Epstein

On the Joe Rogan Experience, Dr. Robert Epstein discusses his extensive research on Google's influence over public opinion and elections, revealing how the tech giant manipulates search results and suggestions to shape voter behavior. Epstein, who has faced significant personal and professional challenges due to his work, explains how these manipulations undermine democracy and free elections. He emphasizes the need for a permanent, large-scale monitoring system to track and expose these practices. The conversation also delves into the broader implications of AI, memory, and human consciousness, proposing that our brains might act as transducers connecting us to higher intelligences or other realms.

• Robert Epstein expresses frustration over his career and personal life.
• Mentions working extensively on research and facing significant challenges from tech companies.
• Describes being unable to publish in mainstream media after testifying before Congress about Google.
• Details the impact of being discredited by prominent figures and media outlets.

"I have worked day and night. I work about 80 hours a week. I'm directing almost 40 research projects."

• Highlights his extensive workload and dedication to research.

"In 2019, after I testified before Congress about some of my research on Google, President Trump tweeted to his whatever millions of gazillions of followers basically some praise for my research."

• Indicates his involvement in high-profile testimony and the subsequent political attention.

"Hillary Clinton, whom I had always admired, chose to tweet back to her 80 million Twitter followers, and she tweeted that my work had been completely debunked."

• Discusses the backlash from political figures and its impact on his reputation.

• Mentions the suspicious death of his wife following his testimony.
• Describes multiple incidents of violence and intimidation against people associated with him.

"My wife was killed in a suspicious car accident shortly after I testified before Congress in 2019."

• Points to the suspicious timing of his wife's death.

"One of my staff members sitting next to me... there was a needle sticking out of the computer case... it had gone through the end and of course I'm thinking, uh oh, that's awful but maybe you just saved my life."

• Recounts a recent incident involving a needle found in his computer case, suggesting potential threats.

• Discusses his discoveries related to the influence of tech companies, particularly Google.
• Emphasizes the extensive surveillance conducted by these companies and the implications for privacy and democracy.

"I've made at least 10 major discoveries about new forms of influence that the internet has made possible."

• Highlights his contributions to understanding online influence mechanisms.

"Google alone does that over more than 200 different platforms, most of which no one's ever heard of."

• Points out the vast reach of Google's surveillance capabilities.

"They surveil us and our kids 24 hours a day."

• Stresses the continuous monitoring by tech companies.

• Details how search engines, particularly Google, manipulate search results and suggestions to influence public opinion and behavior.
• Describes the profound effect of curated information on voters and election outcomes.

"By manipulating search suggestions, you can turn a 50/50 split among undecided voters into a 90/10 split with no one having the slightest idea that they have been manipulated."

• Explains the power of search suggestions in shifting public opinion.

"We have hardcore large-scale scientific data on all of these issues."

• Asserts the robustness of his research data.

• Describes the development of a nationwide monitoring system to track the content being sent to users by tech companies.
• Emphasizes the importance of collecting data from real users to understand the personalized content being delivered.

"We're collecting data now in all 50 states... from the computers of a politically balanced group of more than 15,000 registered voters in all 50 states."

• Details the scope of their data collection efforts.

"We protect people's privacy but we are getting these increasingly accurate pictures of what Google and other companies are sending to real people."

• Ensures the privacy of participants while collecting valuable data.

• Mentions legal battles and suppression attempts by Google against alternative services like ProtonMail.
• Discusses the difficulty in making algorithms and their biases illegal due to the inherent need for bias in search algorithms.

"Google tried to shut down ProtonMail... they saw it possibly cutting in a little bit into their Gmail business."

• Describes Google's aggressive tactics against competitors.

"The search algorithm itself has to be biased because you don't want it using an equal time rule."

• Explains the complexity of regulating search engine algorithms.

• Introduces a dashboard that summarizes collected data and shows real-time bias in content being delivered by tech companies.
• Provides examples of bias in search results related to specific topics and political figures.

"We went public with a dashboard that summarizes the data that we're collecting and shows the bias in real-time."

• Announces the launch of a tool for monitoring bias.

"They're sending highly conservatively biased stories to conservatives, moderates, and liberals about Elizabeth Warren."

• Provides an example of biased content delivery against a political figure.

"Whoever controls the information controls humanity; they control the narrative, and that controls us."

• Emphasizes the overarching influence of information control on society.

• Field agents will be equipped with special equipment to analyze answers provided by IPAs like Alexa, Google Home, Google Assistant, and Siri.
• Published peer-reviewed articles show biased answers from IPAs can significantly shift opinions.
• Personalized answers from IPAs have an even larger effect on opinion shifts.

"We've published in a peer-reviewed article on What's called the answer bot effect. We will show you in controlled experiments how easily a biased answer coming from an answer bot like Alexa can just like that shift the opinion of someone who's undecided 40% or more after just one question and answer interaction."

• Biased answers from IPAs can shift opinions by 40% or more after a single interaction.

• Lawmakers and regulators did not foresee the manipulative potential of search engines and IPAs.
• Early investors in tech companies were unaware of the potential negative impacts.

"No one anticipated these kinds of manipulations were possible... our lawmakers, our regulators never anticipated that."

• Lawmakers and regulators lack anticipation of manipulative potential.

• Public awareness of biased information from tech companies is low.
• People often remain unaware or indifferent due to pre-existing opinions and busy lives.

"Most people are... busy with their lives and their families and work. They haven't made an adjustment because they don't feel it's necessary for them personally."

• People are often unaware or indifferent to biased information due to pre-existing opinions and busy lives.

• Nationwide system monitoring 24/7, capturing real-time data.
• Data shows biases and manipulations by tech companies.
• System aims to provide evidence for courts and national leaders to stop manipulations.

"We are drawing data 24 hours a day... you can actually watch the real-time dashboard and you'll see the data coming in... we will break 100 million next week."

• Real-time data monitoring system providing evidence to stop manipulations.

• Political response to tech manipulations varies by administration.
• Democrats are perceived to be supported by tech companies, making bipartisan action difficult.

"The Democrats are all in the pockets of these companies... Republicans don't like regulation... unless there's bipartisan action, there'll never be any action."

• Bipartisan action is necessary but difficult due to political alignments with tech companies.

• Monitoring projects have cost close to $7 million since 2016.
• Interest from other countries to build similar systems.

"It has cost us close to $7 million... I've been contacted by people from seven other countries who want me to help them build systems."

• Significant financial investment and international interest in similar monitoring systems.

• Public advocacy groups and parenting groups are interested in monitoring tech content.
• Content recommended to children includes inappropriate material, increasing engagement through addictive techniques.

"These are all being recommended to kids... we're not out there hunting for dirt... this is content that's coming onto the devices of children of our field agents."

• Monitoring reveals inappropriate content recommended to children to increase engagement.

• Monitoring system can assess compliance with regulations and detect manipulations in financial markets.
• Collecting content from AI to assess threats and changes in AI behavior.

"We can use our monitoring system for active threat assessment of AI... we will be able to see it."

• Monitoring system can detect AI threats and assess compliance with regulations.

• AI poses a serious existential threat to humanity.
• Monitoring system can help detect early signs of AI hostility or advanced intelligence.

"These AIs are a serious threat to our existence... we could see content coming from AIs that is a little bit skeptical about humans or maybe even a little bit threatening."

• AI poses a serious existential threat, and monitoring can detect early signs of hostility.

• Significant personal and financial costs involved in building and maintaining the monitoring system.
• Relationships affected due to involvement in tech monitoring and advocacy.

"It's cost almost $7 million... I'm amazed that I'm still here... Ray Kurzweil's head of engineering at Google, and maybe he protects me."

• Significant personal and financial costs, with relationships affected due to involvement in tech monitoring.

• Evolution has created various transducers in animals, potentially including a transducer connecting to another domain or universe.
• This could explain sudden increases in human intelligence and capabilities.

"We are encased in transducers... at some point, evolution possibly using a chemical called DMT... connected up all the experience it's having with another domain."

• Evolution may have created transducers connecting to another domain, explaining increases in human intelligence.

• The brain's function is not like a computer, making transferring consciousness impossible.
• Consciousness involves unique, dynamic processes that cannot be replicated by scanning.

"The computer processing metaphor that we use to describe how the brain works is absolutely wrong... you can't actually do a transfer of the sort that Ray talks about."

• The brain's function is unique and dynamic, making transferring consciousness impossible.

• Evolution may have created connections to other domains or universes, enhancing human intelligence.
• Physicists believe in some variation of the multiverse, suggesting our understanding of the universe is limited.

"Any physicist will tell you that the kind of space that we experience is not the nature of the universe... it's so pathetic where we're just picking up so little information."

• Evolution may have created connections to other domains, and physicists believe in the multiverse, suggesting limited understanding of the universe.

• Concept of Neural Transduction:
  • Proposes a connection between human consciousness and a higher intelligence.
  • Suggests this connection could explain brain functions and the structure of the universe.

"Now all you need is a transducer that connects up our domain with another one in which we are now connected to a higher intelligence and you've got a new way of understanding how the brain works."

• This theory posits that the brain functions as a transducer, linking our reality with another domain of higher intelligence.

"I call it NTT or neural transduction theory... a piece I published in Discover Magazine."

• The theory has been formally introduced and discussed in scientific publications.

• Testing and Simulation:

  • Plans to test the theory in neuroscience labs worldwide.
  • Simulating the connection could lead to controlled communication with other intelligences.

"We could over time learn to simulate this connection if we can simulate the connection then we can control the connection."

• Simulation of this connection could potentially allow direct communication with higher intelligences.

• Nature of Dreams:
  • Dreams are seen as streams of consciousness not generated by the brain but received through transduction.
  • Lucid dreamers and near-death experiences are areas of interest for studying this phenomenon.

"The dreams come on why why does a dream sometimes have nothing to do with your daily life sometimes it's just so amazing and so wild."

• Dreams are mysterious and often unrelated to daily life, suggesting they might be streamed from another source.

"I think they're all indicators of transduction."

• Dreams and other mysterious phenomena are considered indicators of neural transduction.

• Other Mysterious Phenomena:

  • Near-death experiences, demonic possession, and sudden lucidity before death are also linked to transduction.
  • These phenomena suggest consciousness might not be entirely brain-produced.

"Consciousness is not really we're not really producing the Consciousness Consciousness has to do with that connection."

• Consciousness might be a result of a connection to another domain rather than a product of the brain.

• Human Evolution:
  • Neural transduction might explain the sudden leap in human cognitive abilities.
  • This leap could be rare and unique, explaining the Fermi Paradox (why we don't see other intelligent life).

"We did seem to suddenly rather suddenly get to a higher level of functioning."

• The sudden increase in human cognitive abilities might be due to neural transduction.

"You only get to that next level if you can make this connection."

• Making the connection through neural transduction might be necessary for advanced cognitive development.

• Comparison with Other Species:

  • Other species might have similar but less sophisticated connections.
  • The rarity of this connection could explain why other intelligent species are not found.

"It's very possible that this kind of leap that that occurred with us maybe 20,000 years ago it just it just does H it's so rare."

• The leap in human intelligence might be a rare event, explaining the lack of similar species.

• DMT's Role:
  • DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) might play a crucial role in neural transduction.
  • It is naturally produced in the human body and linked to profound experiences.

"I'm 99% sure that DMT plays in a very important role in this process."

• DMT is believed to be crucial in the process of neural transduction.

"The reality that she experienced on DMT was much realer than the reality she experiences in our life."

• Experiences on DMT are often described as more real than waking life, suggesting a connection to another reality.

• Psychedelic Experiences:

  • Psychedelics might enhance the quality of the connection to this other domain.
  • Practices like holotropic breathing and Kundalini Yoga might also stimulate this connection.

"There's a bunch of different states of meditation that people can achieve there's uh Kundalini Yoga."

• Various practices and psychedelics might enhance the connection to another domain.

• Testing in Neuroscience Labs:
  • Plans to collaborate with neuroscientists and physicists to test and validate the theory.
  • Aim to understand how the brain functions as a transducer.

"I think we're going to find support for this Theory and then Engineers are going to start working on how to simulate it."

• The theory will be tested in neuroscience labs, and engineers will work on simulating the connection.

• Simulation and Communication:

  • Simulating the connection could lead to new ways of communication, including potential telepathy.
  • This could revolutionize human interaction and understanding of the universe.

"This could be the key to telepathy real telepathy this could create uh a kind of unity in humankind that has never existed before."

• Simulating the connection might enable real telepathy and unprecedented human unity.

• Changing Metaphors:
  • The theory challenges current metaphors like the computer metaphor for brain function.
  • Suggests a new way of understanding the brain and consciousness.

"I've presented lots and lots of smart people in multiple Fields with this challenge for years how does the brain work tell me how the brain works without introducing a metaphor like a computer metaphor."

• The theory aims to move beyond current metaphors to a testable scientific framework.

• Interdisciplinary Collaboration:

  • Emphasizes the need for collaboration between neuroscientists and physicists.
  • Combining insights from different fields might lead to breakthroughs.

"Bringing together people from very different fields who generally speaking don't communicate in this case it's mainly physicists especially astrophysicists and neuroscientists."

• Interdisciplinary collaboration is key to advancing understanding and testing the theory.

• Impact on Understanding Reality:

  • The theory could reshape our understanding of reality and the universe.
  • It suggests that our current perception of reality is limited and could be expanded.

"It'll change the way we see the structure of the universe so it's interfacing with Consciousness rather than being conscious itself."

• The theory might fundamentally change our understanding of the universe and consciousness.

• The discussion challenges the traditional concept of memory, suggesting that memory as we understand it might not exist.
• The idea proposed is that the brain functions as a transducer rather than a storage device.
• Various metaphors for memory, such as libraries or interconnected neurons, are considered outdated.

"There is no memory in the brain. I'm saying there's a transduction process occurring and when the brain gets damaged, the transducer like if I smash this microphone, the transduction process is affected."

• Explanation: The speaker argues that memory is not stored in the brain but is a result of a transduction process that gets disrupted upon brain damage.

"Memory itself is a metaphor. There used to be the old memory metaphor based on a library and shelves... these are all metaphors; there is no memory in the brain."

• Explanation: The traditional metaphors for memory (like libraries) are outdated and do not accurately represent how memory functions.

"By the time he was 17, he had memorized all 31 of Beethoven's piano sonatas... you can search his brain forever and you'll never find a single note; it's not in his brain."

• Explanation: The example of a pianist memorizing sonatas illustrates that the information is not stored in the brain in a physical form.

• The theory challenges the practical understanding of memory, such as recalling historical facts or personal information.
• The discussion includes examples like drawing a dollar bill from memory to illustrate the limitations of human memory.

"If you cut open Al Franken's brain, you will never find a map of the United States, but he can draw it accurately from memory."

• Explanation: This example suggests that detailed information is not physically stored in the brain but is accessible through some other means.

"There are people who could glance at a map of the United States and then draw the whole thing in detail... they have a different kind of memory."

• Explanation: Some individuals can recall detailed information after brief exposure, suggesting a different mechanism at work.

• Neural Transduction Theory (NTT) is introduced as an alternative explanation for how the brain functions.
• The theory posits that the brain acts as a transducer, communicating with higher intelligence or another realm.

"The brain is a transducer allowing us to communicate with higher intelligence in another universe."

• Explanation: This theory suggests that the brain's role is to transduce information from another realm rather than store it.

"This capability could have arisen on its own or been introduced by outsiders, allowing us to communicate in more meaningful ways with extraterrestrials."

• Explanation: The theory could explain advanced human capabilities and potential communication with extraterrestrial intelligence.

• The theory is testable and could be empirically supported through experiments.
• The discussion emphasizes the need for more research and the potential for rapid advancements in understanding.

"It's empirically testable, and I don't think it's going to take 20 years; maybe just five years because the labs already exist."

• Explanation: The speaker is optimistic about the feasibility of testing and validating the theory within a relatively short time frame.

"We're trying to work out experiments that can be conducted and that should produce one result or another depending on whether transduction is occurring."

• Explanation: The goal is to design experiments to empirically test the validity of the Neural Transduction Theory.

• The theory could provide explanations for various psychological phenomena, such as psychosis, déjà vu, and the feeling of having known someone forever.

"Psychotic states are just an interruption in a pathway, which makes sense for psychotic states."

• Explanation: Psychosis could be explained as a disruption in the transduction process.

"If you've got neural transduction theory in your toolbox, lots of stuff just falls into place."

• Explanation: The theory could offer explanations for many phenomena that currently seem mysterious.

• The conversation shifts to concerns about technological manipulation, particularly by large tech companies like Google.
• The discussion highlights the need for monitoring and regulation to ensure free and fair elections.

"Google shifted at least 6 million votes to Joe Biden who won the popular vote by about 8 million."

• Explanation: The speaker claims that tech companies can significantly influence election outcomes through data manipulation.

"We need a permanent, large-scale monitoring system to know what these companies are doing and how they're messing with our minds and elections."

• Explanation: The need for monitoring systems to ensure transparency and fairness in the digital age.

• The speaker shares personal experiences and challenges, emphasizing the urgency of addressing these issues.
• There is a call for public support and funding to continue the research and monitoring efforts.

"I've been working on this for 12 years, and it's gotten to the point where I am wiped out, fed up, exhausted, and disillusioned."

• Explanation: The speaker expresses the emotional toll of their long-term efforts to address these issues.

"We need at least another $50 million to set up a secure facility and have security teams to protect our data and people."

• Explanation: The speaker outlines the financial requirements to establish a robust monitoring system.

• The conversation explores potential solutions, including making Google's database a public commons and encouraging competitive search engines.
• The discussion also touches on the broader implications for society and governance.

"The way to take down Google is to declare their index a public commons, allowing others to create their own niche search engines."

• Explanation: Making Google's database public could foster competition and innovation in the search engine market.

"Monitoring is no longer optional; it must be in place to keep up with whatever the tech companies are dishing out."

• Explanation: Continuous monitoring is essential to ensure accountability and transparency in the digital age.