#262 Herbie Cohen Worlds Greatest Negotiator

In "The Adventures of Herbie Cohen: World's Greatest Negotiator," Rich Cohen chronicles the life and lessons of his father, Herbie Cohen, a legendary negotiator whose exploits range from childhood antics in Brooklyn to high-stakes international diplomacy. Herbie's philosophy, blending Jewish wisdom with practical negotiation tactics, emphasizes the importance of perspective, the art of making the extraordinary ordinary, and the power of believing in oneself. Despite his success, Herbie faces personal trials, including a near-fatal health crisis and an extramarital affair, which test his own doctrines. Through it all, Herbie's influence endures, teaching that life's meaning lies in living fully and imparting wisdom to the next generation. Rich's narrative not only pays homage to his father's legacy but also explores the universal theme of how parental figures shape our lives, even into adulthood.

• Rich Cohen's father, Herbie Cohen, took him to buy his first car, emphasizing the importance of the negotiation process.
• Herbie prepared a meticulous list of features for the ideal car, which turned out to be a used Honda Civic with less than 70,000 miles.
• Despite finding the perfect match, Herbie rejected the car because it was covered in names, indicating a careless previous owner, which he referred to as a "schmuck."
• Herbie's lesson to Rich was that the 'how' something is done can be as important as the 'what.'

"This car has all the what, but it is seriously deficient in the how."

This quote highlights Herbie's belief that the manner in which something is achieved or presented is just as important as the end result itself.

• Rich Cohen's latest book, "The Adventures of Herbie Cohen, World's Greatest Negotiator," was discovered by accident.
• The book is a biography of Herbie Cohen, written by his son, Rich Cohen, and includes 57 short stories.
• Rich Cohen's book is appealing due to its portrayal of Herbie's personality and life lessons.

"I found his latest book, which is the one I'm holding in my hand."

The speaker indicates they have physically acquired Rich Cohen's book, which they found compelling enough to discuss on their podcast.

• Herbie Cohen is recognized as an expert negotiator and author of the book "You Can Negotiate Anything."
• Herbie has a history of resolving major disputes, such as strikes and international crises.
• He has advised presidents, worked on strategic arms reduction talks, and contributed to the field of game theory and the FBI's behavioral science unit.

"He helped resolve the major League Baseball umpire strike in 1979, as well as the New Orleans police strike the same year."

This quote exemplifies Herbie Cohen's expertise and success in resolving high-profile negotiations and disputes.

• Rich Cohen shares childhood stories that reveal life lessons taught by Herbie Cohen through actions, mistakes, and aphorisms.
• Herbie's philosophy is akin to "Jewish Buddhism," emphasizing engaged detachment and the ability to walk away from any situation.
• Herbie uses aphorisms to teach life lessons and maintain perspective.

"Over time, Herbie turned the tricks he learned in Brooklyn into a philosophy."

Rich Cohen describes how Herbie developed his negotiation skills and life philosophy based on his experiences.

• A story from Herbie Cohen's childhood showcases his early negotiation skills when he and Larry King avoid expulsion from school by leveraging the potential consequences for the principal.

"Life is a game, and to win, you must consider other people as players with as much at stake as yourself."

Herbie Cohen's negotiation philosophy is rooted in understanding the motivations and stakes of other people to influence outcomes.

• Herbie Cohen believes that understanding human nature is key to successful negotiation.
• The book recounts various anecdotes where Herbie uses his understanding of people to persuade and negotiate effectively.

"Life is a game. And that other people are playing it, too. So you have to focus on their interests, and that's the way to truly move them."

The quote captures Herbie's belief that negotiation is about recognizing and addressing the interests of others.

• Herbie Cohen's time in the military, including investigating criminal activity, provided him with insights into human behavior and the importance of dealing with ambiguity.
• The ability to function amidst uncertainty is highlighted as a valuable skill.

"Those who can live with ambiguity and still function do the best."

Herbie imparts a lesson to his son that the capacity to handle uncertainty is crucial for success.

• Herbie's role as a coach in the army's basketball competition demonstrates his leadership and motivational skills.
• The stories illustrate how Herbie applied his negotiation and human understanding skills to various aspects of life, including sports.

"So Herbie can't really play, but he's a really good coach."

This quote reflects Herbie's ability to lead and inspire others, despite not being a skilled basketball player himself.

• Taking notes is emphasized as a crucial activity for learning from the past and keeping a record.
• Note-taking is also a strategy for letting others know that their actions and words are being recorded.
• The act of note-taking can occasionally be used to hold people accountable for their own words.

"For my father, taking notes is key. You learn from the past, lets you keep a record while letting the other side know that a record is being kept."

The quote highlights the value of note-taking as a learning tool and as a means of maintaining accountability in interactions with others.

• The importance of tailoring strategies to the talents and strengths of the team is discussed.
• A successful strategy must be realistic and based on the actual resources available, not on ideal or fantasy scenarios.
• The narrative encourages pragmatism and resourcefulness in dealing with given circumstances.

"In the real world, you have to devise your strategy for the talent you actually have. Don't bitch, don't complain. Just play the cards that you've been dealt."

This quote emphasizes the importance of adapting to the real-world conditions and utilizing the resources at hand rather than complaining about them.

• The protagonist's ambition and determination are traced back to his time in the army and subsequent enrollment in NYU.
• His experiences in the military are suggested to have refocused his professional ambitions.
• The narrative discusses the protagonist's hardworking nature and the consequences it has on his family life.

"It's almost like his experience being in the army during the Korean War had him refocus on his professional ambitions."

The quote suggests that military service played a significant role in shaping the protagonist's drive for professional success.

• The narrative explores the differing accounts of how the protagonist's parents met.
• Storytelling is portrayed as a powerful tool that can shape perceptions and create a narrative that transcends factual accuracy.
• The protagonist's father, Herbie, is characterized as someone who enjoys adding drama to stories and creating a more poetic reality.

"Herbie has a gift for storytelling, and he intentionally tries to make life more dramatic."

This quote illustrates Herbie's inclination towards embellishing stories for dramatic effect and his appreciation for storytelling.

• The protagonist's career journey is detailed, including his time at Allstate insurance and NYU Law School.
• His approach to negotiation is outlined, emphasizing the importance of settling disputes quickly and effectively.
• The narrative describes Herbie's rapid career advancement and his philosophy on negotiation as a ubiquitous and lifelong skill.

"Negotiation... It's not something you learn, but something you've always known and have been doing all of your life."

The quote conveys the idea that negotiation is an innate skill that everyone exercises in various aspects of life.

• The narrative addresses the protagonist's upbringing and the lessons imparted by his father.
• Loyalty and standing up to bullies are emphasized as core values taught within the family.
• The protagonist's father's approach to discipline and life lessons is contrasted between his older siblings and himself.

"For Herbie, loyalty. Without that, he said, you have nothing."

This quote underscores the paramount importance Herbie places on loyalty within the family and in life.

• The protagonist's father, Herbie, transitions from working for companies to starting his own business.
• His decision to become self-employed is motivated by a desire to have more control over his work and to directly offer his services.
• The narrative highlights the value of applying one's skills and knowledge in an entrepreneurial context.

"He would never again work in a single location or office, but in towns and cities around the world."

The quote illustrates Herbie's move towards a more independent and global approach to his profession.

• The protagonist's father becomes famous following the publication of a successful book.
• Herbie's fame leads to a busy schedule of speaking engagements and media appearances, affecting his availability to his family.
• The narrative discusses the influence of fame on personal life and family dynamics.

"He becomes the subject of magazine articles. His speaking fee doubled and then doubled again over time."

This quote highlights the rise in Herbie's popularity and the financial success that comes with his increased fame.

• Herbie's philosophy is described as one that empowers individuals to recognize their own strength and potential.
• The narrative delves into the influences on Herbie's philosophy, including history, literature, and art.
• The protagonist's father emphasizes the importance of confidence and the perception of control.

"You're never out of options, he'd say. There's always something to be done."

This quote encapsulates Herbie's belief in the power of self-agency and the ability to find solutions in any situation.

• Herbie Cohen uses a name-drop strategy to secure a table at a fully booked restaurant.
• He pretends to know the owner, Ella Brennan, to gain favor with the maitre d'.
• Herbie's approach demonstrates his negotiation skills and his principle of staying detached from outcomes.

"Herbie threw up his hands, turned to my mother and said, I guess Ella was wrong. Ella, said the maitre D confused Ella Brennan, a friend of mine. She said I should just come on over and that you would seat us. Five minutes later, we were at a table in the corner."

The quote illustrates Herbie's tactic of using a well-known name to manipulate the situation to his advantage, showing his resourcefulness and understanding of social dynamics.

• Rich Cohen and his siblings were involved in setting up seminars for their father, Herbie.
• They absorbed Herbie's negotiation lessons through repetition.
• Herbie's core message was consistent: stay detached, approach negotiations as a game, and care, but not too much.

"His message was the same. Stay detached. Don't become fixated on a particular outcome. Care, but not that much."

This quote encapsulates Herbie's philosophy on negotiation and life, advocating for a balanced approach to caring and detachment to achieve success.

• Herbie taught that by seeming less knowledgeable, one could gain power in negotiations.
• The most powerful words in negotiation are "who" and "what," promoting curiosity and open-mindedness.
• Herbie advised acting ignorant to encourage the other party to offer more information.

"By seeding power, you gain power. [...] The most powerful words in business are, I don't understand. Help me divest yourself of preconceived notions and biases."

Herbie's quote reflects his strategy of feigning ignorance to gain an advantage in negotiations, which can lead to innovative ideas and successful outcomes.

• Herbie became famous for his negotiation tactics and was about to write a book.
• Rich was influenced by a reporter, Andrew Tobias, who profiled Herbie, sparking Rich's desire to become a freelance writer.
• Herbie's rule of three in marketing: being seen multiple times creates the illusion of fame.

"Watching Tobias work is what made me want to be a writer. And not just any kind of writer, but a freelance writer that had the ring of freedom."

Rich was inspired by Tobias's work and lifestyle, which contributed to his decision to pursue a career in writing.

• Herbie's advice to Rich included the importance of repetition for persuasion.
• The book "How Brands Grow" echoes Herbie's belief in repetition influencing purchase decisions.
• Rich's interest in the book is piqued by multiple recommendations, underscoring the power of repetition.

"Someone sees your name three times, they feel as if you're everywhere, so you must be famous. And if people think you're famous, then you are famous."

Herbie's insight into the psychology of perception and marketing is highlighted, emphasizing the impact of repeated exposure.

• Herbie lectured on the importance of routine and practice, making the extraordinary ordinary.
• However, Herbie's writing process for his book was intense and isolated, contradicting his usual advice.
• Rich observes the contrast between Herbie's teachings and his actual approach to writing his book.

"He told us to go about our work in a methodical and even boring way, to conduct ourselves in the practice, exam or scrimmage as if it were the real test or game. That way, when we got there, we'd feel as if we'd already been there a dozen times before."

This quote shows Herbie's belief in preparation and routine, although he did not follow this method when writing his book.

• After writing his book, Herbie took a hands-on approach to marketing.
• He personally traveled to promote his book, using media appearances and bookstore visits to increase visibility.
• Herbie's efforts resulted in his book becoming a bestseller, demonstrating the effectiveness of his marketing strategy.

"Herbie considered himself a master at moving product. Life is 97% marketing, he'd say, you're better off with a mediocre product and a great salesman than with a masterpiece and an idiot to sell it."

Herbie's philosophy on the importance of marketing and salesmanship is evident, highlighting his proactive approach to selling his book.

• Rich decides to pursue writing despite Herbie's suggestion to attend law school as a backup plan.
• Rich's determination to avoid having something to fall back on reflects his commitment to his chosen career path.
• Herbie's advice contrasts with Rich's desire to fully commit to writing without a safety net.

"I told him I did not want something to fall back on, because people who have something to fall back on usually end up falling back on it."

Rich's response to his father's advice reveals his conviction that having a backup plan may hinder one's commitment to their primary goal.

• Jeff Bezos emphasizes the importance of dedication to one's primary plan.
• Plan B should be focused on making Plan A successful, rather than creating an entirely separate fallback plan.

"Plan B. Jeff has this great quote. He said, plan B should be to make plan a work."

The quote from Jeff Bezos, reiterated by Speaker A, underlines the philosophy of committing wholeheartedly to one's initial plan and goal, rather than dividing attention between multiple plans.

• Herbie's lifestyle of poor diet, lack of self-care, and overworking leads to a serious health crisis.
• A heart attack necessitates an emergency quadruple bypass surgery.
• The family assembles a top medical team, but Herbie's condition worsens quickly, leading to an emergency operation.

"And so a few years later, all. The kids are spread out all across the country...Herbie is still at it, constantly eating like crap, not take care of himself...and he winds up passing out and having to be rushed to the hospital...Have, I think, quadruple bypass, open heart surgery."

Speaker B describes the circumstances leading to Herbie's health emergency and the family's scramble to support him, highlighting the consequences of a neglectful lifestyle on health and the urgency it created for his loved ones.

• Rich Cohen experiences a detached emotional state when faced with his father's critical health situation.
• This detachment is a coping mechanism to handle the stress and responsibilities during a crisis.
• Emotional detachment can suddenly shift to an overwhelming sense of reality and emotion, as experienced by Rich.

"My weird detachment evaporated in an instant...I fell through the floor and back into reality. I nearly burned on reentry."

Speaker A reflects on the emotional transition from detachment to an acute sense of reality upon seeing his father's condition post-surgery, illustrating the psychological coping mechanisms and their sudden breakdown in the face of a loved one's mortality.

• Adult children, despite their own lives and families, are deeply affected by the health crises of their parents.
• The stress and emotional toll of dealing with serious illness can result in a numb, mechanical response until the full emotional weight hits.

"You think you'd be distraught the entire time...and it just comes in waves where you feel almost like you're going through the motions...then just a wave, it just knocks you out and like, the most insane emotional experience, at least that I've ever had."

Speaker B discusses the paradoxical emotional response when dealing with a parent's illness, where one might expect to be constantly distraught but instead experiences intermittent waves of intense emotion.

• The stories and experiences of fathers are seen as embedded within their sons, influencing their lives and choices.
• Rich Cohen explores this theme in his writing, reflecting on his father's life and his own experiences as a son.
• The relationship between fathers and sons is a recurring theme in biographies and can provide insight into generational patterns and influences.

"When you're reading biography, you can always understand the son by the story of his father. The story of the father is embedded in the son."

Speaker A quotes from a biography to emphasize the deep connection and influence between fathers and sons, suggesting that understanding one's father can provide insight into one's own life and actions.

• Herbie experiences emotional fluctuations after surgery, including depression and reflection on unmet life goals.
• His son, Rich, tries to comfort him, but Herbie expresses regret for not achieving what he had set out to do in life.
• Rich contemplates the idea that everyone may be following in their father's footsteps, consciously or not.

"No, I haven't, he said. All I've ever done is what I think my father would have done."

The quote captures Herbie's moment of vulnerability and introspection, regretting that his life's actions may have been more about emulating his father than achieving his own aspirations.

• The loss of a parent has a profound and lasting impact on individuals, regardless of their age.
• Rich Cohen and others reflect on the influence their deceased parents continue to have on their lives.
• The narrative explores how the memory and legacy of parents shape the lives of their children, even long after they have passed away.

"60 years have not softened these memories, nor the sadness that he missed enjoying his three children growing up."

Speaker A recounts how the loss of a parent can leave a lasting emotional imprint, as exemplified by James Dyson's reflections on his father's death and its impact over six decades later.

• Herbie's affair with a younger woman causes significant family turmoil.
• The affair is seen as a departure from the values and rules Herbie had set for his family.
• Rich expresses disappointment in his father's actions but also sympathizes with his existential crisis following his near-death experience.

"I was disappointed by Herbie, but sympathetic, too. His brush with death, his fear of oblivion...had pushed him to folly."

Speaker A acknowledges the complexity of his father's actions, attributing them to Herbie's confrontation with mortality and the resulting desire for new experiences, despite the negative consequences.

• The suddenness of Helen's (Rich's mother) death serves as a stark reminder of life's fragility.
• Rich reflects on the importance of cherishing time with family and not taking it for granted.
• The narrative encourages readers to consider the long-term impact of their decisions and to prioritize relationships with family members.

"You have no idea. Every time I see them...I just assume that this might be the last time I ever see him."

Speaker B shares a personal perspective on the importance of valuing time with loved ones, influenced by the experiences of loss described in the book.

• Despite the losses he has faced, Herbie continues to teach and influence others.
• His experiences and survival through adversity, including the Covid-19 pandemic, add to his legacy.
• Herbie's perspective on the meaning of life emphasizes the importance of being a decent person, raising a good family, and striving for more life.

"The meaning of life is more life."

Speaker A concludes with Herbie's philosophical take on life's purpose, suggesting that the pursuit of life itself, through personal decency and family, is the ultimate meaning.

• Rich Cohen is praised for his writing style and the insights his books provide into life, entrepreneurship, and the human experience.
• The discussion highlights the value of reading biographies to learn from others' lives and to apply those lessons to one's own life.

"He's a really gifted writer."

Speaker A compliments Rich Cohen's writing abilities, endorsing his books as valuable resources for entrepreneurs and anyone interested in deep, personal narratives.