Why do so many meditators want to silence this Neuroscientist?

Scott Carney's conversation with Professor Willoughby Britain delves into the often-overlooked negative effects of meditation, a topic she has extensively researched as a clinical psychologist and director of Cheetah House at Brown University. They discuss how meditation, while widely praised for its benefits, can lead to adverse effects like insomnia, cognitive disruptions, and even psychosis, which are seldom acknowledged due to financial and cultural biases. Britain emphasizes the need for informed consent and balanced understanding, advocating for awareness of meditation's potential risks alongside its benefits.

• The podcast explores the lesser-discussed negative effects of meditation, emphasizing that while meditation has many benefits, it can also have adverse effects.
• The host, Scott Carney, introduces Professor Willoughby Britain, a leading expert in the field, who discusses her research on the negative impacts of meditation.
• The conversation aims to provide a balanced view of meditation, acknowledging both its benefits and potential risks.

"You can find thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of articles about all the ways that meditation can make you better and healthier... but what is missing mostly from the scientific literature... is how these things can also go horribly wrong."

• This quote highlights the lack of research and discussion on the negative effects of meditation, despite its widespread promotion for its benefits.

• Willoughby Britain became interested in the negative effects of meditation after her dissertation study unexpectedly showed meditation causing insomnia rather than improving sleep.
• Her experiences with psychotic episodes in meditators at a psychiatric hospital further fueled her research interest.
• Britain's research led to the creation of the "Varieties of Contemplative Experience" study, which documents meditation-related challenges.

"I was also like most meditation researchers, a meditation enthusiast... but when I did my dissertation study... it basically caused cortical arousal, you know, insomnia in everyone."

• Britain's initial expectation that meditation would improve sleep was challenged, leading her to question assumptions about meditation's health benefits.

• Many meditation teachers are aware of the negative effects but do not openly discuss them due to concerns about damaging the perception of meditation.
• There is a reluctance to acknowledge these issues, partly due to financial interests and the desire to protect the image of meditation.
• Britain's research faces strong pushback, which she finds intriguing and indicative of underlying issues in the meditation community.

"Another teacher... looked not surprised and like kind of nodding and looking almost bored by the array of symptoms that I was describing."

• This quote illustrates the awareness among meditation teachers of the negative effects, yet their reluctance to discuss them openly.

• Financial interests play a significant role in the reluctance to discuss meditation's negative effects, as many people profit from meditation products.
• There is also a psychological conflict where individuals rely on meditation as a refuge, making them resistant to acknowledging its imperfections.
• Britain's research aims to inform people about the risks, not to deter them from meditating, but to help them practice safely.

"All of the same strategies that you would find in a brand defense... are being used in the meditation industry."

• The meditation industry employs strategies to downplay negative effects, similar to tactics used by other industries to protect their image.

• The "Varieties of Contemplative Experience" study identified 59 categories of meditation-related challenges across seven domains.
• Cognitive changes include rapid thought processes, concept loss, and delusions.
• Perceptual changes involve heightened sensitivity and potential hallucinations.
• Emotional effects range from extreme fear to loss of emotions.
• Somatic experiences include sensations of energy and insomnia.

"In the varieties of contemplative experience study, we documented 59 categories of meditation-related challenges across seven different domains."

• This quote provides an overview of the comprehensive documentation of meditation-related challenges in Britain's study.

• Many symptoms of negative meditation experiences are often portrayed positively within the meditation community.
• Heightened sensitivity and energy movements are sometimes seen as signs of advanced practice, though they can be maladaptive.
• The podcast emphasizes the importance of recognizing when these experiences become overwhelming and harmful.

"Everything you're saying as a negative symptom is also things that I've heard described as positive symptoms... but what you're saying is you're seeing those same symptoms but they make it maladaptive for the person."

• The quote highlights the dual interpretation of symptoms, where what is considered advanced practice by some can be debilitating for others.

• The podcast discusses the profound changes in one's sense of self during meditation retreats, often involving the loss of sense of self, known as ego death or ego dissolution.
• These changes are highly sought after in various spiritual practices but can be challenging to appraise as either positive or negative experiences.

"Losing your sense of self, you know, ego death or ego dissolution, is a highly sought after effect of many different types of spiritual practices."

• Ego dissolution is a complex and desired outcome in many spiritual practices, yet it poses challenges in determining its impact on individuals.

• The appraisal of experiences during meditation retreats is a significant issue, as the same experience can be perceived differently by different individuals.
• There is no consensus on what constitutes an adverse effect, highlighting the subjective nature of these experiences.

"The issue of who, what, what is an adverse effect, what makes it adverse, and who gets to decide... every category there were some people that said this was bad for me."

• The subjective nature of meditation experiences makes it difficult to categorize them as universally positive or negative.

• Meditation retreats create an environment where participants can focus solely on meditation, often leading to intense personal experiences.
• The retreat setting can accommodate individuals with varying levels of cognitive function, emphasizing the simplicity and singular focus required.

"The retreat creates the environment where you're just having one experience... it doesn't show how you integrate in society."

• The controlled environment of retreats allows for focused meditation but may not reflect real-world integration challenges.

• The podcast explores the concerning issue of suicidality among individuals on meditation retreats, highlighting the need for awareness and appropriate support.
• Historical and contemporary accounts of suicides during meditation practices are discussed, emphasizing the potential risks involved.

"One of my students committed suicide at the end of the retreat... not because they were dissatisfied but because they were supposedly enlightened."

• The tragic outcomes of some meditation retreats underscore the need for informed consent and mental health support.

• The podcast references historical accounts from Buddhist texts, illustrating the Buddha's recognition of the potential dangers of intensive meditation practices.
• The Buddha's teachings evolved to emphasize less intense forms of meditation, such as focusing on breathing.

"The Buddha says, well, maybe we shouldn't do this really intensive type of meditation... let's just focus on breathing."

• Historical texts reveal the Buddha's acknowledgment of the risks associated with certain meditation practices, leading to adjustments in teachings.

• Different Buddhist traditions have documented intense spiritual experiences, with varying interpretations of whether they signify progress or require intervention.
• The podcast highlights the need for informed consent and awareness of potential challenges in spiritual practices.

"These intense experiences are documented in all three major schools of Buddhism... they don't agree on whether these are a problem or progress."

• Diverse interpretations of spiritual experiences across Buddhist traditions underscore the complexity of these phenomena.

• Kundalini Awakening is discussed as a concept often used to explain various spiritual experiences, though it is considered a broad and sometimes unhelpful category.
• The podcast critiques the tendency to label unexplained experiences as Kundalini Awakening, which can be unsettling for those seeking secular meditation practices.

"Kundalini Awakening is kind of like the fibromyalgia of the spiritual world... it is a garbage category that everybody just throws everything into."

• The broad use of Kundalini Awakening as a catch-all term highlights the need for more precise understanding and categorization of spiritual experiences.

• The podcast contrasts Western clinical approaches with esoteric spiritual interpretations of meditation experiences, noting differences in treatment and understanding.
• The importance of empowering individuals to interpret their own experiences is emphasized, rather than relying solely on authority figures.

"I want to know how that person is experiencing it and interpreting it... I want to be able to give power back to the person who has to actually deal with it."

• Empowering individuals to interpret their own experiences fosters personal agency and may lead to more appropriate responses to meditation-related challenges.

• The concept of institutional betrayal is discussed, where institutions deflect responsibility for adverse experiences by spiritualizing them.
• Spiritual bypassing is identified as a mechanism to avoid addressing real-world issues by framing them in spiritual terms.

"Spiritualizing is a really easy way to deflect any claim of harm... spiritualizing in order to deflect liability."

• Institutional betrayal and spiritual bypassing highlight the need for accountability and transparency in spiritual and meditation practices.

• The podcast examines the challenges of adapting ancient meditation practices to modern contexts, emphasizing the need for careful consideration of their applicability.
• The potential mismatch between historical practices and contemporary lifestyles is highlighted.

"Just because something was really adaptive to be a Madman living under a tree... doesn't necessarily work well when you are an investment banker."

• The adaptation of ancient practices to modern contexts requires thoughtful integration to ensure their relevance and effectiveness.

• Distinction between spiritual and religious experiences is complex, involving phenomenology and contextual appraisal.
• Spiritual experiences often involve changes in the sense of self, such as a loss of boundaries, which can be perceived positively or negatively.
• The context in which an experience occurs, such as a meditation retreat, can influence its interpretation as spiritual or religious.

"So when is a spirit when is an experience a religious experience or when is it a spiritual experience what makes it that way?"

• The speaker is questioning the criteria that define spiritual or religious experiences, highlighting the complexity of the distinction.

"What determines whether it's religious are a whole host of other things are sort of secondary or contextual to the experience."

• The classification of experiences as religious or spiritual depends on secondary or contextual factors rather than the experience itself.

• The appraisal process involves determining the value and significance of an experience, which is not inherent in the experience itself.
• Experiences are often appraised within cultural or traditional frameworks, which can affect their perceived value.

"And so what we've found is that there there's an experience and then there's a process of appraisal that is that this experience is spiritual."

• The speaker emphasizes that it is the appraisal process that labels an experience as spiritual, not the experience itself.

• Miracles and extraordinary experiences can lead to unquestioning belief in a tradition or teacher.
• The concept of "skillful means" (upaya) involves using deception or tricks to instill belief in followers.

"If you can perform the miracle then then therefore everything that person that that teacher gives you must be true."

• Miracles are often used as a basis for accepting the entire belief system of a tradition, regardless of other evidence.

"It's called upaya right this is the word in Sanskrit skillful means skillful means right where you where you I skillfully convince them to believe everything I said because I lied to them."

• The concept of "skillful means" involves using deception to instill belief, raising ethical questions about the legitimacy of such practices.

• Scientific studies on meditation often face challenges in generalizing results beyond specific groups.
• The hype around meditation and its benefits can lead to misconceptions about its efficacy.

"When a study finds that any treatment is is better than a control group in a you know R hopefully it's a randomized control trial if it's not you can just stop listening."

• The speaker cautions against overgeneralizing results from scientific studies, emphasizing the importance of rigorous methodology.

"It's a good tool it's everyone should have this tool in their toolbox but you can't use it for everything."

• Meditation is a valuable tool, but it should not be considered a solution for all problems.

• Psychedelics are gaining popularity for their potential therapeutic benefits, but their side effects and risks are acknowledged.
• The enthusiasm for psychedelics can lead to exaggerated claims about their transformative potential.

"Psychedelics can do everything you know so oh my God yeah willby."

• The speaker highlights the growing excitement around psychedelics and the tendency to overstate their benefits.

"If these Technologies let's call them collectively meditation and psychedelics really were this transformative thing that could turn people into enlightened beings of endless compassion wouldn't have happened already."

• The speaker questions the transformative claims of psychedelics and meditation, suggesting that such changes should be evident if they were true.

• The potential risks of psychedelics are more openly acknowledged than those of meditation, but similar issues of hype and economic interests exist.
• The market for psychedelics is rapidly expanding, amplifying issues present in the meditation industry.

"There isn't a single credible person that will say it has no side effects I mean all the researchers all the wise people you know who have been around are are saying yes there can be risks."

• The speaker notes that, unlike meditation, the risks of psychedelics are widely recognized within the research community.

"All of that is meditation on steroids when it comes to psychedelics all I mean the the market share is just like astronomical."

• The speaker compares the rapid growth of the psychedelics market to that of meditation, suggesting that the same issues are being amplified.

• The podcast began with a public service announcement about not overusing powerful techniques like psychedelics and the Wim Hof method.
• Tim Ferriss and Sam Harris are highlighted as individuals who responsibly acknowledge the risks involved in their promoted practices.
• The importance of balancing the benefits and potential dangers of powerful techniques is emphasized.

"Don't do the heroic dose of psychedelic."

• This quote warns against excessive use of psychedelics, highlighting the risks involved.

"Tim Ferriss is someone who tries things and acknowledges potential dangers."

• Tim Ferriss is recognized for experimenting responsibly and acknowledging risks, setting an example for others.

• Discussion on the risks associated with popular practices like the Wim Hof method and meditation.
• The importance of acknowledging and addressing negative consequences is stressed.
• Whistleblowers and truth-tellers often face challenges when exposing risks.

"Tim was instrumental in the Wim Hof method becoming huge, but then people started drowning."

• This highlights the unforeseen risks that can arise from popular practices and the need for caution.

"There aren't a lot of famous truth tellers in the world."

• The quote emphasizes the rarity and importance of individuals who speak the truth about potential dangers.

• Meditation can have adverse effects; Cheetah House was founded to address these issues.
• Meditation-related challenges are often misunderstood or misdiagnosed by professionals.
• Cheetah House offers peer support rather than a clinical model to empower individuals.

"Half of all people that try meditation even once will have at least one meditation-related adverse effect."

• This statistic highlights the prevalence of negative experiences with meditation.

"Cheetah House does all the taking care of people and educating trainings."

• Cheetah House is positioned as a key resource for those experiencing meditation-related challenges.

• One in 10 people who try meditation experience impairment in functioning due to adverse effects.
• Cheetah House provides consultations, support groups, and educational resources for affected individuals.
• The need for specialized support and education in handling meditation-related challenges is emphasized.

"One in 10 people will have a meditation-related adverse effect that's associated with impairment in functioning."

• This quote underscores the significant impact meditation can have on some individuals' daily lives.

"We decided to do a peer support model because many feel traumatized by the power exerted over their narrative."

• The peer support model is chosen to empower individuals and avoid the authoritative approach of clinical models.

• An epidemiological study shows that 49% of the US population has tried meditation.
• There is a need for better representation of data to understand the scale of positive and negative effects.
• Reliable change index is suggested for a clearer understanding of treatment outcomes.

"49% of the US population has tried meditation even once."

• This statistic reveals the widespread practice of meditation in the US.

"A reliable change index displays data differently, showing proportions of significant changes."

• This approach is recommended for a clearer understanding of individual experiences with meditation.

• The asymmetrical representation of meditation effects often highlights only positive outliers.
• Negative outliers and the majority's experiences are often overlooked.
• The conversation emphasizes the need for balanced representation in understanding the effects of practices like meditation and the Wim Hof method.

"You're only going to see these positive outliers, but you need to see the negative outliers too."

• This quote stresses the importance of acknowledging both positive and negative extreme cases.

"The truth is often way in between those extremes."

• The quote suggests that most people's experiences are neither extremely positive nor negative, but rather average.

• The conversation concludes with a call to share the podcast with those who might benefit from understanding the risks and benefits of meditation and other practices.
• Cheetah House is highlighted as a primary resource for those experiencing meditation-related challenges.

"Share it with somebody who you think needs to hear it because apparently one out of 10 people need to hear this."

• The quote encourages sharing the information to raise awareness about meditation-related risks.

"Go to Cheetah House, we'll take care of you."

• Cheetah House is recommended as the go-to resource for support and information on meditation-related issues.