Why This Bible Scholar LEFT Christianity - w/ Dr. CJ Cornthwaite | Jesus Way Podcast 012

In this episode of the Jesus Way podcast, host Aaron Abke speaks with guest CJ Cornwave, a PhD in Christian origins, about the challenges and nuances of deconstructing from Christian fundamentalism. They explore the fear and psychological struggle of questioning deeply held beliefs, the societal and community pressures that often accompany such a journey, and the impact on personal relationships. Both Aaron and CJ share their personal experiences of leaving fundamentalism, highlighting the liberating yet daunting path to embracing a more open, honest, and spiritually fulfilling understanding of faith. They emphasize the importance of self-kindness, finding supportive communities, and the ongoing nature of spiritual exploration.

• Christianity often engages in heresy hunting, labeling even slight divergences in belief as heretical.
• This behavior strengthens the divisions within Christianity and contradicts the teachings of Jesus about love and acceptance.
• The fear of being labeled a heretic can lead individuals to self-censor or remain quiet about their true beliefs.

"The worst thing Christianity does to itself is the heresy hunting. And everyone who has even the slightest divergence of belief are all heretics and going to hell."

• This quote highlights the detrimental impact of heresy hunting on the unity and perception of Christianity.

• Speaking out against established beliefs can lead to significant personal loss, including community and livelihood.
• The fear of losing the love and acceptance of one's community can be a powerful deterrent to expressing divergent beliefs.

"Like to say, I no longer believe this. Knowing that the people who love me, are they even still going to love me if I don't believe the right things anymore?"

• Expresses the internal conflict and fear of losing relationships when challenging established beliefs.

• Many Christian conversions are based on inducing a fear state, threatening eternal damnation for non-believers.
• This method raises ethical questions about the authenticity of faith that is rooted in fear rather than genuine belief.

"Every Christian conversion I've ever seen is you induce somebody into a fear state. You say, 'Hey, look, if you don't join our club or convert to Christianity, you're going to burn in hell forever.'"

• Critiques the practice of using fear as a tool for conversion, questioning its ethical and spiritual validity.

• The process of deconstruction involves critically examining and often rejecting rigid, dogmatic beliefs.
• Deconstruction can lead to a more nuanced understanding of spirituality and personal faith.

"What we're going to talk about today is just the process of deconstruction and I think even we might touch on some of the deeper nuances of...deconstruction."

• Sets the stage for a discussion on the personal journey of questioning and potentially leaving fundamentalist beliefs.

• The Jesus Way philosophy seeks to return to the original teachings and social context of Jesus.
• It emphasizes understanding Jesus's teachings through historical and cultural lenses, often diverging from modern Christian orthodoxy.

"I definitely appreciate the way that you're trying to get back to the actual social context of you know what Jesus who Jesus would have been."

• Acknowledges the importance of understanding Jesus's teachings within their historical and cultural context.

• The development of Christian orthodoxy from the second to fourth centuries significantly diverged from the teachings of the historical Jesus.
• The influence of Greco-Roman culture led to the paganization and deification of Jesus, deviating from his original message.

"It makes a lot of sense to me that the teachings of Yeshua...would have survived in the Greco Roman world of that day not being paganized."

• Discusses how cultural influences led to significant changes in the interpretation and practice of Jesus's teachings.

• Personal stories of deconstruction often involve a gradual realization and rejection of fundamentalist beliefs.
• The journey can be marked by moments of clarity and pivotal experiences that challenge previously held convictions.

"I still remember the exact moment I knew I didn't want to be an evangelical anymore. And it was actually like very poetically on the shores of the Sea of Galilee."

• Illustrates a personal turning point in the journey of deconstructing from evangelical beliefs.

• Approaching different religious beliefs with humility and understanding can bridge divides and foster peace.
• The focus should be on love and acceptance, as taught by Jesus, rather than judgment and exclusion.

"They'll know you're my disciples, aka Christians, they'll know you're Christians by your love for one another."

• Emphasizes the core Christian teaching of love and acceptance as a path to unity and peace.

• The speaker discusses the authenticity and significance of the parables of Jesus, emphasizing their unique and profound nature.
• Parables are seen as a testament to Jesus being a real person with a unique spiritual message.
• The Jewish context of the parables is highlighted, showing how the original audience would have understood them differently from modern interpretations.

"I can see people fabricating his kind of basic sotiology like judge and you'll be judged. Forgive and you'll be forgiven. The measure you give is the measure you'll get back. Many philosophers have taught similar things. But it's the parables that I think really to me validate that this was a real person who really was kind of a spiritual genius in a way and had a very unique message or at least a unique way of delivering the message."

• The speaker emphasizes that the parables' depth and richness make them difficult to fabricate, supporting the idea that Jesus had a unique spiritual insight.

• The speaker notes the discrepancy between Jesus' teachings and modern Christian interpretations, particularly regarding the path to eternal life.
• Jesus emphasized keeping the commandments and loving one's neighbor, which contrasts with many contemporary Christian teachings.

"You could go to any Christian church on Sunday and ask a pastor how do I attain eternal life? Like what is it that gets me to heaven? And of course, you know, Jesus's answer in all three synoptics was keep the commandments and list them and finishes with love your neighbor as yourself."

• The speaker points out that modern Christian teachings often overlook Jesus' emphasis on following the commandments and loving one's neighbor.

• The discussion touches on the conflict between faith and works, particularly the differing views of Paul and James.
• Martin Luther's struggle to reconcile Paul and James' teachings is mentioned, highlighting the complexity of this theological debate.

"Martin Luther says many people sweat hard trying to reconcile and then he lists the verses Paul and James faith and works and he says um and uh something like it's futile they can't do it type of thing."

• The speaker references Martin Luther's acknowledgment of the difficulty in reconciling Paul and James' teachings on faith and works.

• The conversation explores the different portrayals of Jesus in the New Testament, including his depiction as a philosopher in Luke and Acts.
• The speaker discusses the harmonization of these views and the complexity it introduces to understanding Jesus' teachings.

"Reading Luke for example, like I love Luke, like Jesus almost becomes it's not not so much like Jewish, but Jesus is almost like a philosopher type sage in Luke and and Acts as well a little bit."

• The speaker appreciates the philosophical portrayal of Jesus in Luke and Acts, noting how it adds complexity to understanding his teachings.

• The discussion highlights Paul's significant influence on Christianity and the tension between his teachings and those of James.
• The speaker notes the Catholic Church's emphasis on Paul and marginalization of James.

"Kind of the whole gentile Christian tradition just really went hard towards the Paul end of the spectrum and kind of rejected James."

• The speaker observes the historical shift towards Paul's teachings in Christianity, often at the expense of James' influence.

• The Catholic Church's role in shaping Christian orthodoxy and its historical narratives is discussed.
• The speaker questions the legitimacy of the Church's claims about Peter and the establishment of the Roman Church.

"The Catholic Church pretends like it has this established tradition of the Apostle Peter. He traveled to Rome and he started this church and every pope since Peter has been a successor of Peter. And this is the story you're told. And yet scholars go, 'Yeah, there's no actual proof of any of that.'"

• The speaker challenges the historical accuracy of the Catholic Church's narrative regarding Peter's role in establishing the Roman Church.

• The conversation delves into the personal experiences of deconstructing faith and the impact on relationships and community.
• The speaker shares their journey of moving away from fundamentalism and the challenges faced in reconciling personal beliefs with traditional teachings.

"I was angry with my family, but otherwise I slunk off. Like I really did because it was a natural progression. I closed up my time at the church."

• The speaker describes their gradual departure from fundamentalism and the personal challenges involved in navigating this transition.

• The speaker discusses the potential connections between Paul's teachings and the Dead Sea Scrolls.
• The use of specific terminology by Paul, similar to that found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, is highlighted as evidence of possible influence.

"Paul is the only person in the New Testament who uses a number of Kumanisms. One of them is sons of light, sons of darkness."

• The speaker notes the unique terminology used by Paul, suggesting a connection to the Essenes or other sectarian groups associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

• The speaker shares personal experiences of how their deconstruction journey affected family dynamics.
• The importance of maintaining respectful dialogue and allowing space for differing beliefs is emphasized.

"My dad, you know, full-time pastor his entire life. um yeah, son of a pastor, he he had big problems with my deconstruction at first, as you would imagine, but because I never ever tried to have a debate with him or anything."

• The speaker highlights the importance of respecting differing beliefs within family dynamics during the deconstruction process.

• The speaker reflects on their past behavior in their marriage, acknowledging that they were harsher than necessary and expressing gratitude for their partner's patience.
• They discuss the challenges of maintaining a marriage while undergoing personal changes, particularly in the context of religious beliefs and deconstruction.

"I don't think I did that well to be honest. I think like in retrospect I think I was harsher with her than I should have been."

• The speaker acknowledges their past behavior and expresses regret, indicating personal growth and self-awareness.

"I'm thankful she deconstructed too. And she's always like she's got a stronger faith than I have even today."

• The speaker appreciates their partner's journey and strength in faith, highlighting the importance of mutual support and understanding in relationships.

• The conversation delves into the process of religious deconstruction, exploring the complexities and emotional challenges involved.
• The speaker shares their journey of questioning and moving away from evangelical beliefs, triggered by inconsistencies in religious teachings and personal experiences.

"I'll never forget a sermon I heard from a Christian pastor... it was the creepiest cringiest thing I'd ever heard and that was one of my like I'm my 17 years old in high school senior and I'm like what did he just say."

• The speaker recounts a pivotal moment that sparked their questioning of evangelical teachings, illustrating the beginning of their deconstruction journey.

"I was reading Psalm 51... And I always hated the blood sacrifice, animal sacrifice stuff in the Bible... But I didn't like it. And reading this passage, it was like, yeah, that's how I think it should be."

• The speaker describes a moment of realization and conflict between biblical teachings and personal beliefs, highlighting the internal struggle during deconstruction.

• The discussion critiques Christian apologetics, emphasizing the dissatisfaction with the answers provided to complex theological questions.
• It explores the cognitive dissonance experienced by individuals who adhere to beliefs that seem logically inconsistent.

"I get more and more surprised the more I study the Bible how so many Christians can justify or hold beliefs that I feel are just clearly logically fallacious."

• The speaker questions the logical consistency of certain Christian beliefs, expressing frustration with the explanations offered by apologists.

"Certainty is a hell of a drug, isn't it? Just feeling safe about your beliefs is it feels really good. It feels comfortable."

• The speaker discusses the allure of certainty in religious beliefs and the resistance to questioning those certainties.

• The conversation highlights the importance of community and belonging in religious contexts, and how these needs can influence one's willingness to question beliefs.
• It addresses the potential consequences of losing community support when undergoing religious deconstruction.

"The need to belong, the need maybe the need for certainty... but like I even think about the need to belong in the community, the need to have a place, the need to have people maybe people respect you."

• The speaker reflects on the human need for belonging and how it can conflict with the pursuit of truth and honesty in religious beliefs.

"I get emails from people who are like, 'I can't talk with this about my wife or my marriage is going to end. I can't talk with this about my family because... I won't have a job anymore.'"

• The speaker shares the real-life implications and risks faced by individuals who question their religious beliefs, emphasizing the societal pressures to conform.

• The discussion emphasizes the importance of honesty and personal integrity in navigating religious beliefs and personal growth.
• It explores the challenges of maintaining authenticity in the face of societal and community expectations.

"You have no idea the power of just being honest and saying what you actually think because so few people so few people actually do."

• The speaker highlights the value of honesty and the courage it takes to express genuine beliefs, despite potential backlash.

"When I walked away from that, I lost my livelihood. I lost my calling. I lost that community that believed that I was called by God to lead them."

• The speaker recounts the personal sacrifices made in the pursuit of honesty and authenticity, underscoring the high stakes involved in deconstruction.

• The conversation critiques traditional Christian teachings on salvation, particularly the emphasis on confession and belief.
• It examines the psychological implications of salvation doctrines and the impact on personal freedom and authenticity.

"All of Christianity is predicated on these two pillars, right? Confess Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead to pay the debt for your sins."

• The speaker challenges the foundational tenets of Christian salvation, questioning the absence of these teachings in Jesus' words.

"If you make this false dilemma for people and say if you don't believe this you're going to hell then in my opinion you've absolutely robbed all free will from that person."

• The speaker argues that the traditional doctrine of salvation undermines free will, presenting a moral and philosophical dilemma.

• The discussion explores a broader and more inclusive understanding of spirituality, focusing on openness to divine possibilities beyond rigid religious frameworks.
• It advocates for a spirituality that embraces uncertainty and the potential for divine experiences in diverse contexts.

"I don't think I believe anything is like a statement of faith but I think I'm just open to divine possibility."

• The speaker expresses a flexible and open-ended approach to spirituality, emphasizing exploration and personal experience over dogmatic beliefs.

"I can see the divine anywhere... I can see what you're doing and it and it speaks to me in that way of like you're a genuine seeker looking for you know like looking for that divine wherever like wherever you find it."

• The speaker appreciates the diverse expressions of spirituality and the search for the divine, highlighting the value of inclusivity and openness in spiritual exploration.

• The discussion emphasizes the difference between traditional Christian teachings and a more mystical understanding of God.
• Traditional Christianity is critiqued for its rigid view of salvation and the fear-based teachings about the afterlife.
• A mystical view of God is presented, where God is seen as an eternal conscious principle, the "I am," rather than a separate monolithic being.
• This perspective aligns with the idea that God is the awareness or consciousness by which we know ourselves.

"God is the awareness, the consciousness by which we know ourselves, the ground of being as per Meister Eckhart."

• The quote highlights the shift from viewing God as a distinct entity to understanding God as the foundational consciousness that connects all beings.

• Mystical Christianity is portrayed as rich, enjoyable, and inviting exploration, unlike fundamentalism which is seen as static and ego-driven.
• The ego is identified as a significant barrier in traditional religious roles, especially in leadership positions where one is expected to have all the answers.
• The conversation suggests a move away from ego-driven leadership to a more exploratory and humble approach to faith.

"Mystical Christianity and that's a brand of Christianity you can sink your teeth into and it's enjoyable. It's rich. You're interested in going deeper."

• This quote underlines the appeal of mystical Christianity as a path that encourages deeper exploration and personal growth, contrasting with the rigidity of fundamentalism.

• The process of deconstructing faith is discussed as a natural and necessary journey for many individuals.
• Deconstruction is often triggered by cognitive dissonance and the exposure to alternative ideas and beliefs.
• The conversation acknowledges the discomfort and challenges of deconstruction but also highlights its potential for personal growth and the discovery of a more meaningful faith.

"The more cognitive dissonance you have, the angrier you're going to be. It's like an agitation in the system, and it doesn't feel good to live with that kind of dissonance."

• This quote explains the psychological turmoil that often accompanies deconstruction, emphasizing the inner conflict that arises when deeply held beliefs are questioned.

• The importance of community and open exploration in the deconstruction process is emphasized.
• Finding a supportive community, whether online or in person, is crucial for those questioning their beliefs.
• The conversation encourages openness to diverse spiritual traditions and philosophies as part of the exploration process.

"Find one person you can be honest with, you know, find one person you can express if you can."

• This quote underscores the value of having a confidant or a supportive community during the deconstruction journey, highlighting the need for connection and understanding.

• The discussion reflects on the potential for Christianity to reinvent itself in response to the growing trend of deconstruction.
• There is optimism for new forms of Christian community that focus on love, exploration, and inclusivity rather than dogma and exclusivity.
• The conversation anticipates a shift towards a more compassionate and understanding approach to spirituality.

"I think we're living at a really exciting time if Christianity can reinvent itself and, you know, like we can have these communities full of people exploring these traditions for different reasons."

• This quote captures the hope for a future where Christianity evolves to embrace diversity and exploration, creating more inclusive and life-giving communities.

• The conversation offers practical advice for individuals undergoing deconstruction, emphasizing self-kindness and patience.
• It is important to recognize that deconstruction is a personal journey that takes time and requires introspection.
• The process is framed as an opportunity for growth and a deeper understanding of one's spirituality.

"It takes time. Like it's not something that happens in a week. It's been 15 years for me."

• This quote highlights the long-term nature of deconstruction, encouraging individuals to be patient with themselves as they navigate their spiritual journey.