What Do We Actually Know About Autism? | Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen | Ep 562

Professor Simon Baron Cohen, a prominent clinical psychologist and director of the Autism Research Center at Cambridge, discusses autism's complexity and its dual nature as both a disability and a difference. He highlights autistic individuals' strengths in systemizing and pattern recognition, contrasting them with challenges in cognitive empathy. He explores gender differences, noting men often excel in systemizing while women tend to be more empathetic. Baron Cohen also addresses the potential for cruelty linked to low empathy, emphasizing the need for a balanced understanding of human behavior, integrating both empathic and systemizing perspectives.

• Autism is not a singular condition but a multi-dimensional disorder with various factors that can obscure its central features.
• Autistic individuals often have different brain development, focusing more on systems and pattern recognition than on people, which can be a significant asset in many environments.

"Autism isn't just a single thing. There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors."

• Autism should not be viewed solely as a deficit model but recognized for its unique strengths and challenges.

"If we recognize that brains develop differently and that some brains focus more on systems than they do on people, there's growing evidence that autistic people are better than non-autistic people at understanding systems at pattern recognition."

• Autism encompasses a wide range of conditions, including language delays and intellectual disabilities, but these should not solely define severity.

"You can have autism with language delay or without language delay, with intellectual disability or without, with ADHD or without, so many different kind of combinations, co-occurring conditions."

• The classification of autism spectrum disorders has broadened, and the notion of severity is complex and not solely defined by language or intellectual ability.

"I guess the theory of mind hypothesis I would criticize it as being too simplistic in the sense that autism isn't just a single thing. There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors and theory of mind may be just one of those."

• Understanding others involves adopting their mindset, which is crucial for social perception and interaction.
• Cognitive empathy refers to recognizing what someone else is thinking or feeling, whereas affective empathy involves having an appropriate emotional response to someone else's state of mind.

"In my terminology more recently, I call that cognitive empathy. But Dennett called it the intentional stance, taking the intentional stance."

• The development of theory of mind in children progresses from understanding false beliefs around age three or four to more complex second-order false beliefs by age five or six.

"It's not till about the age of three or four that kids can appreciate that somebody else may have a false belief... and then it takes a little bit longer not till the age of five or six before they can do what's called second order false belief."

• Empathy is crucial for social creatures and may be represented at multiple levels of neurological function.

"It seems to me likely that empathy broadly speaking is sufficiently crucial to social creatures like us that it might be represented at multiple levels of neurological function."

• Gender differences, particularly in empathy, may be evident in developmental timelines, with girls possibly developing faster in recognizing and responding to others' feelings.
• The concept of systematizing versus empathizing explores how different genders might prioritize these cognitive processes.

"We might get on to the controversial area of gender differences and you know whether girls on average might be developing faster in terms of being able to recognize other people's feelings and respond with an appropriate emotion."

• The discussion of empathy includes both the cognitive and affective components, which are essential for understanding and responding to social cues.

"Cognitive empathy is the recognition element, recognizing what someone is thinking or feeling... The flip side of the coin, the other fraction of empathy, I call affective empathy."

• Autistic individuals may show delays in social cognitive skills, such as theory of mind, affecting their ability to understand and predict others' mental states.
• The early symptoms of autism, such as language delays and aversion to touch, suggest fundamental neurological differences that impact social cognition.

"There's quite a lot of evidence that they show delays in mastering some of these kind of social social cognitive or levels of theory of mind reasoning."

• The widening classification of autism spectrum disorders reflects the diversity of conditions and challenges faced by autistic individuals.

"The classification of autistic spectrum disorders has widened tremendously since the original formulation of the concept."

• Understanding autism requires recognizing its multi-dimensional nature and the various factors that contribute to its presentation.

"Autism isn't just a single thing. There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors."

These notes cover the key themes and ideas discussed in the transcript, providing a comprehensive overview of the topics related to autism, empathy, and gender differences.

• Autism is a multi-dimensional condition, often obscuring its central features such as language delay and antipathy towards touch.
• Antipathy towards touch in autistic individuals may stem from difficulty in understanding others' intentions and a dislike for unpredictability.
• Autistic individuals often struggle with unexpected changes, preferring predictable environments and repetitive activities.

"Most humans enjoy intimate touch...so why would an autistic child or some autistic kids not like to be touched? For me, that may come down to not understanding the other person's state of mind."

• This quote highlights the potential reason behind the aversion to touch, linking it to difficulties in understanding social cues and intentions.

"Autistic people have a hard time with unexpected change. If things are predictable, they do fine."

• Emphasizes the preference for predictability and challenges faced with unexpected changes, which can cause stress.

• Autism is defined as a disability in social relationships, communication, and coping with unexpected change, but also as a difference under the neurodiversity framework.
• Autistic brains develop differently, leading to unique ways of perceiving and interacting with the world.

"I don't call it a disorder...I see autism as a disability in social relationships and communication and also being able to cope with unexpected change."

• Distinguishes autism as a disability rather than a disorder, focusing on specific areas of challenge.

"Some brains in some humans in the world focus more on systems than they do on people because systems are ultimately predictable."

• Highlights the different cognitive focus in autistic individuals, emphasizing a preference for predictable systems over social interactions.

• Autistic individuals may experience delays or difficulties with theory of mind, impacting their ability to read social cues and infer others' thoughts and feelings.
• The concept of joint attention and establishing topics of conversation is often delayed in autistic children.

"It might just take them longer to infer what someone is thinking or feeling."

• Indicates that theory of mind is not entirely absent but may be delayed or less intuitive.

"Autistic kids often are delayed in the ability to produce the pointing gesture."

• Points to specific developmental delays in autistic children related to joint attention and communication.

• Systemizing involves understanding rule-governed systems, which autistic individuals often excel at due to attention to detail and pattern recognition.
• Empathizing involves understanding social relationships and narratives, which may be less intuitive for autistic individuals.

"Autistic people are better than non-autistic people at understanding systems at pattern recognition."

• Highlights strengths in systemizing and pattern recognition, framing these as assets rather than deficits.

"The autistic proclivity is also to hyperreact to the unexpected...it's when the system doesn't do what it's supposed to do."

• Discusses the heightened sensitivity to unexpected changes as a reaction to deviations in predictable systems.

• Autistic traits such as attention to detail and systemizing are linked to human invention and tool use, demonstrating the evolutionary advantages of these traits.
• The ability to deconstruct problems and understand systems has driven complex tool development throughout human history.

"The Pattern Seekers...how autism drives invention."

• Suggests that autism-related traits have played a significant role in human innovation and technological advancement.

"The ancestor who invented this flute had created a complex tool and also had created a complex system which is music."

• Illustrates how systemizing skills have contributed to cultural and technological developments, such as musical instruments.

• Systemizing involves understanding and manipulating systems. This trait is often seen in individuals who have a strong interest in how things work and in making improvements to existing systems.
• Autistic individuals may have a heightened ability to systemize, often focusing intently on specific systems or tasks.
• Empathy, in contrast, involves understanding and connecting with others' emotions and is often associated with social interactions and communication.

"Autistic people may systemize non-stop that they're looking around the world and they're fascinated by how is that table made?"

• Autistic individuals often have a strong focus on understanding systems and structures, which can be a key aspect of their cognitive style.

"The empathizers might be, you know, again it's another bell curve of individual differences."

• Empathy varies among individuals, with some people naturally more inclined towards understanding and relating to others' emotions.

• Systemizing has been a part of human development for thousands of years, as seen in historical constructions like the Tower of Babel.
• Modern examples include engineers and inventors like Elon Musk, who use systemizing to innovate and create new technologies.

"Elon Musk came out as autistic a few years ago. You know, he's an engineer."

• Elon Musk is an example of someone who uses his systemizing abilities to achieve significant advancements in technology and engineering.

• Children who are strong systemizers may focus intensely on specific tasks, such as building with Lego or understanding mechanical systems.
• Traditional education systems may not always accommodate these children's learning styles, which can lead to challenges in social environments like playgrounds.

"Many autistic kids love Lego, you know, and they often focus for long periods."

• Children with strong systemizing tendencies often engage deeply with activities that allow them to explore systems and structures.

"We should focus on the strengths of autistic people and...that could then become their stepping stone into flourishing in education and flourishing in the place of work."

• Emphasizing the strengths of autistic individuals, particularly their systemizing abilities, can lead to greater success in education and the workplace.

• Research indicates that, on average, women score higher on measures of empathy, while men score higher on measures of systemizing.
• These differences are observed in both small-scale and large-scale studies, including cross-cultural research.

"Women on average score higher on the EQ and men on average score higher on the SQ."

• Gender differences in empathy and systemizing are significant and consistent across large sample sizes.

"We published a study showing across 57 different countries...this female superiority on the test."

• Cross-cultural studies confirm that women generally outperform men on empathy tests, indicating a robust gender difference.

• Empathy is closely related to the personality trait of agreeableness, which involves being cooperative, compassionate, and concerned with others' well-being.
• There is interest in exploring whether low agreeableness is associated with systemizing, as systemizers may prioritize logic and systems over social harmony.

"Agreeableness to me involves keeping track of how someone else is feeling and what they might be thinking."

• Agreeableness, like empathy, involves being attuned to others' emotions and maintaining social harmony.

"There's just as many reasons to be disagreeable as there are to be agreeable."

• Both agreeableness and disagreeableness have their own advantages and can be beneficial in different contexts.

• Individuals can be categorized into different brain types based on their empathy and systemizing scores: Type E (empathy-dominant), Type S (systemizing-dominant), and Type B (balanced).
• Gender differences exist in these brain types, but individual variation means that gender alone cannot predict an individual's cognitive style.

"More women than men are type E. It's about 40% of women and 20% of men. And more men are type S."

• While there are average differences in brain types between genders, significant overlap exists, highlighting the diversity of cognitive styles within each gender.

• The discussion challenges the assumption that gender determines suitability for certain jobs, such as engineering or psychotherapy.
• It highlights the role of prenatal hormones, like testosterone, in brain development and how they might influence interests and abilities rather than gender alone.

"It would be wrong to assume that the woman would be the better fit for the therapist job and the man would be the better fit for the engineering job because it's not about your gender. It's about what kind of brain you have."

• Challenges societal stereotypes about gender roles in professional settings.

• Examines the influence of prenatal hormones, particularly testosterone, on brain development and behavior.
• Discusses studies on androgenized girls and their play patterns, linking higher prenatal androgens to more masculine play and increased autistic traits.

"We found that the girls with CAH had a higher number of autistic traits."

• Suggests a correlation between prenatal hormone exposure and certain traits or interests.

• Acknowledges that social factors, such as parental treatment and media messages, also contribute to gender differences.
• Emphasizes that hormones are not the sole factor in determining interests and behaviors.

"Social factors may well be feeding into all this, but we were quite interested to see whether prenatal hormones or some aspect of our prenatal biology may also be playing a role."

• Highlights the complexity of developmental influences beyond biology.

• Discusses the concept of empathy and its role in understanding human cruelty and kindness.
• Differentiates between affective and cognitive empathy, with implications for autism and psychopathy.

"Why do some people behave with cruelty and others behave with kindness?"

• Explores empathy as a key factor in human behavior and morality.

• Autistic individuals often display strong affective empathy but struggle with cognitive empathy.
• Psychopaths typically have good cognitive empathy, allowing deception, but lack affective empathy.

"The psychopath almost has the mirror opposite profile. They have good cognitive empathy... but they don't seem to care about others."

• Highlights the contrasting empathy profiles in autism and psychopathy.

• Discusses how cruelty involves more than just a lack of empathy, often including a sadistic element.
• Sadism is defined as deriving pleasure from others' suffering, distinct from mere callousness.

"Sadism is best defined as positive delight in the unnecessary suffering of others."

• Differentiates between lack of empathy and active enjoyment of cruelty.

• Describes systemizing and empathizing as independent dimensions with some inverse correlation.
• Suggests that higher empathy can correlate with lower systemizing ability and vice versa.

"We do find a small but significant inverse correlation."

• Explains the potential trade-off between systemizing and empathizing abilities.

• Reflects on historical examples, such as Nazi doctors, to illustrate the dangers of dehumanizing others.
• Discusses the gradual erosion of empathy through political and social changes.

"It's very easy for these social changes and political changes to erode empathy."

• Warns of the ethical implications of treating people as objects or inferiors.

• Concludes with a call for a balanced approach to systemizing and empathizing in ethical decision-making.
• Announces a continuation of the discussion on the political and personal ramifications of the research.

"Many ethical conundrums are rectified by striking the right harmonious balance."

• Emphasizes the need for balance in understanding human behavior and ethics.