Joe Rogan Experience #2183 - Norman Ohler

In a riveting conversation, author Norman Ohler discusses the profound impact of drugs on Nazi Germany and their leaders, particularly Hitler. His book "Blitzed" reveals the extensive use of methamphetamine among German soldiers, which played a crucial role in their initial military successes during World War II. Ohler also delves into Hitler's personal drug use, highlighting how his dependency on substances like oxycodone and cocaine influenced his decision-making and health. Additionally, they touch on the potential transformative effects of psychedelics on society, referencing historical figures like JFK and their alleged experiences with these substances.

• Guest Introduction: The guest is an author known for his book "Blitz: Drugs in the Third Reich" and his new book "Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA, and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age."
• Initial Research: The guest's interest in the topic started with his research on Nazi Germany's use of methamphetamine, which led to discovering documents on Nazi experiments with psychoactive substances.

"The Nazis were really into meth. They were the first ones to understand that methamphetamine can change the war effort."

• Historical Research Methodology: The guest emphasizes the importance of primary research, going into archives to find original documents rather than relying on secondary sources.

"I thought it meant to do historical writing to actually go into archives and look at original documents and not just lean on other books."

• Methamphetamine Use: The Nazis used methamphetamine to enhance soldier performance.
• Discovery of Psychedelic Research: The guest found documents in the Dachau Concentration Camp archives showing Nazi interest in psychedelics.

"I found documents while I was researching Blitz relating to tests with psychoactive substances."

• American Acquisition of Documents: Post-WWII, American forces took many documents, including those on Nazi psychedelic research, to the U.S.

"All documents are in America because when the American Military liberated Dachau, they took all the Psychedelic research done by the Nazis with them."

• Albert Hoffman's Discovery: LSD was synthesized by Albert Hoffman in 1943, derived from the ergot fungus.
• Ergot's Historical Use: Ergot was historically known for causing mass hallucinations when ingested via contaminated bread.

"LSD is made basically from ergot. So actually, LSD is not a synthetic drug as many people believe but is based on a fungus extract."

• Pharmaceutical Development: The Swiss company Sandoz, where Hoffman worked, focused on ergot-based medicines.

"Sandoz made the first effective medicine because ergot makes the blood vessels contract."

• Hoffman's Self-Experimentation: Hoffman accidentally ingested LSD and experienced its powerful effects.

"He had an extremely strong experience and told this to Stoll, the CEO. He said, 'I just took this like 250 micrograms.'"

• Intoxication Room at Sandoz: Sandoz created a room for employees to experience LSD under controlled conditions.

"They created an intoxication room. Secretaries and bookkeepers could come into this room and take LSD."

• Early Medical Trials: Sandoz tested LSD on various patients, including those with depression, with promising results.

"A depressed Swiss farmer took LSD three times and was released from the psychiatric ward because he was cured."

• Modern Research and Alzheimer’s: Recent studies suggest LSD could stimulate brain receptors affected by Alzheimer's.

"I found a study by a company called Eleusis. They had done low dosage tests with LSD on Alzheimer patients."

• Guest's Mother’s Alzheimer’s: The guest's mother suffers from Alzheimer’s, leading him to explore LSD as a treatment.

"My mother suffers from Alzheimer. My father looked at the white paper and decided to try it."

• Positive Effects: The guest’s mother showed signs of improvement after taking low doses of LSD and psilocybin.

"She picked up a newspaper and started reading the headlines. My father said this is a medicinal miracle."

• Stigma and Legal Issues: Despite promising research, LSD remains illegal, complicating further studies.

"LSD is illegal. In America, universities can do research, but this is also a new thing."

• Impact of Prohibition: The prohibitionist approach to drugs has historical roots, notably influenced by figures like Harry J. Anslinger.

"Harry J. Anslinger created the anti-drug regime. He coined the word marijuana because it sounds foreign."

• Harry J. Anslinger’s Influence: Anslinger’s racist and political motives led to the criminalization of cannabis and other drugs.

"He wanted to attack the Jazz scene. He knew that Jazz musicians were smoking a lot of weed."

• William Randolph Hearst’s Role: Hearst supported Anslinger due to his vested interests in the paper industry, threatened by hemp.

"William Randolph Hearst owned paper mills. Hemp was a disruptor."

• Potential for Cognitive Revolution: The guest suggests psychedelics may have played a role in human cognitive development.

"Our Edge was that we had this cognitive Revolution. Early humans were depicting mushrooms in drawings."

• Need for a New Global Narrative: The guest advocates for a global narrative that acknowledges the historical and potential future benefits of psychedelics.

"We don't have a global narrative. That's what I intend to change with my book Stone Sapiens."

• Scientific Understanding: Modern research is beginning to uncover how psychedelics affect the brain, enhancing neuroplasticity and disrupting negative thought patterns.

"Neuroplasticity is enhanced when you take psychedelics. Depressed people always think the same thing. LSD disrupts that."

• Call for Rational Examination: The guest calls for a rational, science-based approach to understanding and potentially legalizing psychedelics for their medicinal benefits.

"We are making a big mistake by not examining this. The costs of dementia are very high, and psychedelics could help."

• Psychedelics like psilocybin have shown effectiveness against severe depression, especially when other treatments fail.
• The brain's default mode network, which is linked to depression, is disrupted by psychedelics, leading to therapeutic effects.
• The first clinical study demonstrating this was conducted in 2015 at Johns Hopkins University.

"Psilocybin helps against very severe depression when nothing else helps."

• This quote highlights the effectiveness of psilocybin in treating severe depression where other treatments have failed.

• Scientists in the late 1940s and early 1950s were enthusiastic about LSD as a potential tool to explore the brain.
• LSD's effectiveness in small quantities made it seem like a promising research tool.

"Many scientists actually believed that LSD could be a game changer for mental health."

• This quote reflects the initial optimism among scientists regarding LSD's potential to revolutionize mental health treatment.

• Society remains insecure about drugs due to decades of anti-drug propaganda.
• Different drugs have varying levels of acceptance and legality, such as cannabis in some states.

"Society is still very insecure when it comes to drugs because we have been bombarded with propaganda."

• This quote underscores the lingering societal fears and misconceptions about drugs due to historical propaganda.

• Cannabis is legal in many places but is considered more addictive and easier to abuse compared to LSD.
• LSD is non-addictive and was even considered for incorporation into Alcoholics Anonymous therapy.

"I think they should have legalized LSD and not cannabis because cannabis is actually harder to use."

• This quote suggests that LSD, despite its controversial history, might be a safer option compared to cannabis in terms of addiction and misuse.

• The Nazis were interested in psychedelics like mescaline for their potential as truth drugs.
• Hitler ordered the development of a truth drug to extract secrets from prisoners, leading to experiments with mescaline and possibly LSD.

"Hitler wanted a truth drug to control and extract secrets from people."

• This quote illustrates the Nazi regime's interest in using psychedelics for sinister purposes like mind control and interrogation.

• The SS conducted experiments with mescaline and possibly LSD during World War II.
• A chemist named Richard Kuhn, who worked for the Nazis, was involved in these experiments.

"The SS even with their torture methods had been unable to extract all the secrets they wanted."

• This quote highlights the extreme measures the SS took to extract information and their interest in finding a more effective method through psychedelics.

• After World War II, the American military and CIA became interested in LSD for brainwashing and mind control.
• The CIA's MK Ultra program aimed to investigate LSD's potential as a weapon.

"The CIA took over the truth drug research from the military and conducted extensive experiments with LSD."

• This quote explains the transition of LSD research from the military to the CIA and the focus on its potential as a mind control tool.

• MK Ultra involved unethical experiments, including dosing unwitting subjects with LSD.
• These experiments aimed to explore LSD's potential for brainwashing and mind control but often resulted in suffering and no useful outcomes.

"Sydney Gottlieb wasted a lot of tax money and brought a lot of suffering to people who were subjected to these unethical tests."

• This quote criticizes the MK Ultra program for its unethical practices and lack of beneficial results.

• The 1960s saw a cultural shift influenced by the widespread use of psychedelics.
• The anti-war movement and counterculture were closely linked to psychedelic use, leading to a government crackdown.

"They wanted to stop this radical shift in society that they were seeing from the 1950s to the 1960s."

• This quote reflects the government's fear of the societal changes brought about by the psychedelic movement and their efforts to suppress it.

• Psychedelics could have been transformative for society if not for the government crackdown.
• They offer the potential for personal growth, empathy, and a sense of global connectedness.

"If psychedelics were made legal and if we kind of move more towards you know because the psychedelics as we said before are and humans are about Transcendence."

• This quote suggests that psychedelics have the potential to foster a more empathetic and connected society.

• There is a need for a structured, responsible approach to psychedelic use and research.
• Understanding the right dosages, settings, and potential risks is crucial for integrating psychedelics into society.

"We need a structure for everybody... based on actual research, based on real knowledge of real clinical data on dosages."

• This quote emphasizes the importance of a well-researched and responsible framework for the use of psychedelics.

• A global discourse on psychedelics and their benefits is necessary.
• Positive global communication and understanding are crucial for addressing global challenges.

"We need positive Global Communication because we have a lot of negative Global Communication."

• This quote highlights the need for a global conversation about psychedelics and their potential to address worldwide issues.

• The historical misuse and suppression of psychedelics have hindered their potential benefits.
• A responsible, well-researched approach could unlock their transformative potential for society.

"The people that want it illegal are just human beings... their experience on Earth would be greatly enhanced if they had the perspective of a psychedelic encounter."

• This quote underscores the irony that those opposed to psychedelics could benefit from their use, advocating for a more open-minded approach.

• Psychedelics could potentially benefit Western society by encouraging cultural growth and addressing societal crises.
• Current societal issues and the lack of effective solutions from political leaders.
• The need for societal change on both national and global levels.
• The concept of freedom over one's consciousness as a fundamental right.

"Western Society is in crisis and we don't really know how to get out of it."

• Highlights the current state of societal issues and the need for change.

"We do need a change on a national level in Germany, in America, in other countries as well as on a global level."

• Emphasizes the need for widespread societal change.

"Freedom over your own Consciousness is what McKenna talked about often."

• References the idea that true freedom includes control over one's consciousness.

• Psychedelics have shown to have positive effects on mental health conditions like PTSD.
• The importance of understanding dosages and safe usage of substances.
• Historical interest in psychedelic research and its potential benefits.

"Especially Freedom over your own Consciousness with substances that have been shown to have dramatic positive effects on people."

• Underlines the positive impact psychedelics can have on mental health.

"Albert Hoffman was thinking about this in the 50s... He set up a memo to Sandoz's CEO writing that Sandoz should now focus on these psychedelic substances."

• Mentions historical efforts to promote psychedelic research.

• The internet has played a role in shifting the narrative around drugs.
• The mainstream media's role in perpetuating negative stereotypes about drugs.
• Increased skepticism and demand for honest information post-pandemic.

"It's losing ground because of the internet. So the narrative up until the internet came around was that these things destroy lives."

• Highlights how the internet has changed perceptions about drugs.

"The mainstream media really is a problem in this regard because they're essentially a propaganda network that is passing itself off as the news."

• Critiques the role of mainstream media in spreading misinformation.

• The organic growth of podcasts and their role in providing honest discourse.
• The importance of long-form conversations in engaging audiences.
• The role of podcasts in bypassing traditional media gatekeepers.

"I think this thing wanted to be made, and it made itself."

• Reflects on the organic development of the podcast.

"There's a hunger for honest discourse and real conversations with people that exists everywhere."

• Emphasizes the public's desire for genuine conversations.

• The influence of media narratives on public opinion.
• The limitations and biases of traditional news outlets.
• The rise of alternative media as a response to mainstream media's shortcomings.

"This is not news; this is not real discourse; this is not real human beings discussing things and trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong. This is propaganda."

• Critiques the nature of mainstream media.

"Real conversation was able to flourish because people had this hunger for it, and they didn't even know they wanted it until they got it."

• Highlights the public's latent desire for genuine conversations.

• The similarities between long-form literature and podcasts.
• Both mediums allow for deep exploration of topics and ideas.
• The importance of unfiltered, in-depth discussions in both literature and podcasts.

"There might be similarity between a podcast and literature because they both go into the long form and into immersion into something."

• Draws a parallel between the immersive nature of literature and podcasts.

"When I hear you talk on a podcast, if I'm a listener, I'm listening, I hear one human being who's talking about your analysis of all the data and all the research that you've done."

• Emphasizes the value of in-depth analysis in podcasts.

• The use of methamphetamine (Pervitin) by the German military during WWII.
• The impact of methamphetamine on the effectiveness of the German Blitzkrieg.
• The broader implications of drug use on military strategy and outcomes.

"Methamphetamine became available... a child could go into a pharmacy and say I want 10 packages of methamphetamine."

• Describes the widespread availability of methamphetamine in Nazi Germany.

"The German Blitzkrieg, which is the German word for Speed War, was only possible because of methamphetamine."

• Highlights the crucial role of methamphetamine in the German military strategy.

• The development and distribution of methamphetamine in Nazi Germany.
• The role of pharmaceutical companies and military officials in promoting drug use.
• The societal and military implications of widespread methamphetamine use.

"Methamphetamine is stronger than amphetamine... and he found a new way of synthesizing meth."

• Explains the development of methamphetamine.

"The German Army was using methamphetamine, and it played a huge role in their military strategy."

• Discusses the military use of methamphetamine.

• The long-term impact of drug use on soldiers and society.
• Ethical considerations surrounding the use of performance-enhancing drugs.
• The lessons learned from historical drug use in military contexts.

"He found out that on meth, you are less capable of solving higher complex questions."

• Points out the cognitive limitations imposed by methamphetamine use.

"Methamphetamine played a huge role, and I examined that huge role. I think it was probably one of the decisive factors."

• Emphasizes the significant impact of methamphetamine on military outcomes.

• The need for open-mindedness in understanding the potential benefits and risks of drug use.
• The importance of honest discourse and in-depth analysis in media and literature.
• The role of historical context in shaping our understanding of current issues.

"Historians are very square people, or at least used to be very square people, and national socialism is such a serious topic that out-of-the-box thinking is not really encouraged."

• Reflects on the importance of innovative thinking in historical research.

"If you want to make cement, you have to add water."

• Uses a metaphor to illustrate the necessity of certain elements (like methamphetamine in WWII) for achieving specific outcomes.

• Nazi Germany utilized methamphetamine extensively to enhance soldier performance.
• High command and the Ministry of Health had discussions about stopping its use, but the Army insisted on its necessity for a modern war machine.
• Methamphetamine provided temporary boosts in energy and reduced fear, making soldiers more aggressive and less inhibited.

"The Army basically said we're not stopping this; we're a modern Army using modern means to achieve our goals."

• This highlights the Army's reliance on methamphetamine as a critical tool for military success.

"Methamphetamine does burn you out; it's an addictive drug that's not healthy."

• Despite its effectiveness in short-term campaigns, methamphetamine's long-term effects were detrimental to health.

• The British eventually recognized the effectiveness of methamphetamine and conducted tests comparing it with amphetamine.
• They chose amphetamine for their soldiers due to its less intense effects and lower addiction potential.

"The British decided that for the English guys, amphetamine is better because it's not so strong."

• This decision reflects a more cautious approach to using performance-enhancing drugs in warfare.

• Methamphetamine and its derivatives have been used in various conflicts beyond WWII, including by terrorist groups and during the Korean War.
• The drug Captagon, a form of methamphetamine, has been widely used in the Middle East and by terrorist groups.

"Captagon is like the cocaine of the poor man."

• This underscores the widespread and ongoing use of methamphetamine derivatives in modern conflicts.

• Soldiers on methamphetamine experienced reduced fear and increased aggression, making them more effective but also more brutal.

"It lowers your fear level and your level of inhibition; you're more likely to kill someone in a brutal way."

• The drug's psychological effects made it easier for soldiers to commit acts of violence.

• Modern militaries, including the U.S., have continued to use amphetamines to keep soldiers alert during long operations.

"A Navy SEAL said before they go into an operation that requires them to stay awake for 50 hours, it's obvious that you use an amphetamine."

• This demonstrates the continued reliance on performance-enhancing drugs in military operations.

• Hitler's personal physician, Dr. Theodor Morell, administered various drugs to Hitler, including vitamins, opioids, and animal hormone concoctions.
• Hitler's drug use evolved over time, with increasing reliance on potent substances like oxycodone (Ocodal).

"From 1941 to 1943, Morell experimented a lot with animal hormones and other potent substances."

• This period marked a significant shift in Hitler's health and decision-making capabilities.

• Hitler's use of opioids and other drugs influenced his military and political decisions, often leading to irrational and aggressive actions.

"Hitler loved Ocodal; it made him feel euphoric and calm, and he used it extensively before important meetings."

• The drug's effects contributed to Hitler's perceived invincibility and erratic behavior.

• As the war progressed and supply lines were disrupted, Hitler experienced withdrawal from his preferred drugs, further deteriorating his health and mental state.

"When the Merc company was bombed, Hitler couldn't get Ocodal anymore, leading to severe withdrawal symptoms."

• This withdrawal likely exacerbated his already declining physical and mental condition, contributing to the collapse of Nazi Germany.

• Similar patterns of drug use were observed in other leaders, such as JFK, who reportedly used amphetamines for chronic pain and depression.

"JFK had a doctor who prescribed methamphetamine, and he also reportedly used LSD."

• This highlights the broader historical context of leaders using drugs to manage health issues and stress.

• The extensive use of methamphetamine and other drugs by Nazi Germany had profound effects on the course of WWII.
• Understanding the role of these substances provides important insights into the decision-making processes and ultimate downfall of the Third Reich.