BONUS: Rick Rubin

Rick Rubin and Woody Harrelson delve into Rubin's remarkable career, exploring his evolution from a punk rock enthusiast to a legendary music producer. Rubin recounts his early days founding Def Jam, producing iconic records for LL Cool J, the Beastie Boys, and Run DMC, and his transformative collaborations with Johnny Cash and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. They discuss the creative process, the importance of authenticity, and Rubin's intuitive approach to music production. Rubin also shares personal anecdotes, including overcoming depression and his fascination with meditation, underscoring his belief in the power of creativity and self-expression.

• Rick Rubin grew up in a small beach town on Long Island, specifically in Long Beach.
• His hometown was characterized by its proximity to the ocean and bay, with a boardwalk and a close-knit community atmosphere.
• His father was a shoe salesman who took over his father's shoe store before transitioning to a buyer for discount stores after the store burned down during riots.
• Rick was an only child and had a good relationship with his parents, who were consistent in their behavior and did not drink but smoked heavily.

"It's a little beach town. It's an island off of the southern part of Long Island. So there were three little islands. There was Long Beach, which is the town that I came from, and then Jones Beach, which was more like a place where people would come to go to the beach."

• Describes the geographical and social setting of his childhood, emphasizing the small-town, beach-centric environment.

"My dad was a shoe salesman. His dad owned a shoe store. And then when his dad passed, he took over the shoe store. And then at some point in time, when Martin Luther King was killed, there were riots, and his store got burned."

• Provides insight into his father's career and the impact of historical events on his family's business.

• Rick's father was a workaholic, leading to limited but positive interactions.
• His parents' heavy smoking influenced Rick to avoid smoking entirely.
• He had a unique experience with meditation, starting at age 14 due to stress-related neck pain, which was suggested by a forward-thinking doctor.

"My dad was kind of a workaholic, so I didn't see him that much. But when I did see him, it was always good. Neither of my parents drank, so what you saw was what you got all the time."

• Highlights the nature of his relationship with his parents and their consistent behavior.

"My neck hurt when I was in 6th grade and I went to see the doctor who delivered me, Dr. Pisicano, who was a kind of a hip doctor. He looked like a beatnik. He had to go tea and listen to jazz music. And he said, the reason your neck hurts is because of stress, and you need to learn to meditate in the seventies."

• Details the unconventional medical advice that led him to start meditating at a young age.

• Rick often felt like he didn't belong, both in his childhood and later in life.
• This feeling persisted despite having loving parents and a supportive environment.
• A significant episode of depression occurred when he was 33, triggered by a seemingly minor phone call that challenged his previously unchallenged confidence.

"All through my life, I've always felt like I don't belong here. I don't belong anywhere. I didn't belong in school, I didn't belong in any of the classes I was in."

• Expresses his lifelong sense of not fitting in, which influenced his personal and professional life.

"When I turned 33, I went through this crazy depression. It was the first time I ever... I was in that state for about two years, very, very depressed."

• Describes a major depressive episode that significantly impacted him, highlighting the vulnerability beneath his outward success.

• Rick Rubin was heavily influenced by punk rock music, particularly bands like the Ramones, Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, Minor Threat, and Black Flag.
• His appearance often led people to mistakenly assume he was involved in drugs, despite his abstinence from substances.
• His early experiences at punk concerts were transformative, shaping his musical tastes and career path.

"The first punk concert I saw was the Cramps at Irving Plaza. Coolest show I've ever seen in my life. Unbelievable."

• Recalls a pivotal concert experience that solidified his passion for punk rock music.

"I can remember between my junior and senior year of high school, I did a summer program at Harvard where I studied logic and design. And I wore a motorcycle jacket. Now I wore sunglasses. Now it was a punk rocker. But everyone at the school came to me to buy drugs."

• Highlights the contrast between his appearance and his actual lifestyle, emphasizing the misconceptions others had about him.

• Rick's Aunt Carol played a significant role in exposing him to the arts, working in creative services at Estee Lauder.
• She introduced him to Broadway plays, classical music, and the artistic environment of her workplace, which fascinated him as a child.
• These experiences contributed to his appreciation for creative expression and the arts.

"My Aunt Carol was at Estee Lauder in Manhattan. She ran the creative services department for Estee Lauder, which was an unusual thing for a woman to do at that time."

• Describes his aunt's influential role and her groundbreaking position in a corporate creative environment.

"She brought me to Broadway plays, classical music. She would give me jobs to do. Like, it was like a big closet with all of the equipment and all of the cuttings from all of the ads that they did."

• Illustrates the enriching experiences and tasks his aunt provided, fostering his early interest in the arts.

• C felt a partial sense of belonging but still perceived herself as an outsider.
• She related to others who also felt like they didn’t belong.

"I still felt like an outsider. Yeah, but I felt like here, other outsiders, I still didn't feel like I was in the group. I didn't feel like I was part of that group. But I related in that none of us belonged."

• C experienced a sense of connection despite not fully integrating into the group.

"I had that feeling of connection."

• Def Jam was initiated while C was in college, not during high school.
• The timeline of college attendance was approximately from 1981 to 1985.
• C transitioned into hip hop due to its similarity to punk rock in terms of energy and street origin.

"I think I was in college, 81 to 85, if I remember correctly."

"I felt they were really close. Like, I felt like punk rock and hip hop were both the current music of the street. They were both high energy, charged, aggressive music. Neither of them involved going to Juilliard or being a virtuoso. They were music made by people in the street."

• C had a punk rock band called Hose, known for its noisy style rather than speed.
• C played rudimentary guitar in the band, emphasizing noise over musicality.

"I had a punk rock band called Hose. H O S. Hose."

"We made two. We made a seven inch single and a twelve inch EP. And it was noisy punk rock. That's how I would describe it."

"I played guitar. I mean, when I say I played guitar, rudimentary guitar, and it was a noisy band, so I could make noise on the guitar."

• C started attending Negril, a reggae club that hosted hip hop nights.
• Hip hop was hard to find on the radio and had limited records available.

"Started going to a nightclub called Negril, which was a reggae club that once a week had hip hop music."

"At this time, you could not hear hip hop music, couldn't hear it on the radio. There were very, very few records, no albums. Maybe twelve inch singles for DJs might come out once a month."

• C met DJ Jazzy J at Negril and decided to make a record together.
• The record was driven by a desire to capture the raw energy of the club experience.

"I met Jazzy J and we became friends. And I remember he had a car with a big sound system in it, which in those days nobody had."

"I just liked him as a DJ. And I said to him, let's make a record."

• Special K from the Treacherous Three connected C with T. LaRock, who wrote the rhymes for "It's Yours."
• The record incorporated drum machine beats and scratching, essential elements of hip hop.

"Special K was a member of the rap group from the very beginning. The way it happened was Treacherous Three were my favorite group."

"T. LaRock wrote the rhymes for 'It's Yours.' I programmed the beat."

"Jazzy Jay came and scratched on the record. Which was an essential piece of the music of hip hop."

• C met Russell Simmons at a party and learned about his significant role in hip hop.
• Russell was impressed by "It's Yours," which led to further collaboration.

"I met this guy Russell, who I didn't know who he was, I didn't know him at that time."

"He said, 'It's Yours' is the blackest record I've ever heard in my life."

• Adam Horovitz from the Beastie Boys found LL Cool J’s demo tape.
• C and Adam were impressed and decided to meet LL Cool J, leading to the creation of "I Need a Beat."

"Adam Horovitz from the Beastie Boys was living with me in the room that summer. And he would go through all the demo tapes and listen to them and he heard a tape that said, 'Ladies Love Cool JDev.'"

"I called LL and asked him to come meet. And he came and he was 16 at the time."

• C emphasized song structure influenced by the Beatles, integrating verses and choruses into hip hop.
• Def Jam records were known for their raw, minimalist production, contrasting with the polished style of earlier rap records.

"I grew up with song structure. I grew up with verses and choruses or an A and B part."

"One of the things that really was different about the Def Jam records, in addition to the raw production, the raw, incompetent production, really was putting the songs into song structure."

"The least amount of information to get the point across."

• C considers The Beatles as the ultimate standard in music, appreciating their clear and perfect production.

"The Beatles are my favorite."

"The Beatles are perfection."

"I think it's just. That's the measuring stick. And then forever more, that'll be the case."

• Initial Success with LL Cool J:
  • LL Cool J's first single, "I Need a Beat," was released when he was only 16 or 17 years old.
  • The single gained significant popularity, marking the beginning of LL Cool J's successful career.

"That got really popular."

• Independent Label Beginnings:
  • The first single was released while they were still an independent label.
  • The process involved gradually creating songs until they had enough for an album, which took about a year.

"The first single we put out, we were still an independent label."

• Learning the Manufacturing Process:
  • The speaker learned the record manufacturing process from Ed Bailman of 99 Records.
  • The process included recording, making labels, printing jackets, and mastering the record.

"Once I met Ed at 99 Records, I said, I want to make a record. Can you walk me through the process?"

• Distribution and Mentorship:
  • A profile employee provided guidance on distribution, helping to set up a network of independent distributors.
  • This mentorship was crucial in navigating the complexities of the music distribution landscape.

"He mentored us, and we paid him some money to mentor us."

• Partnership with Russell:
  • The speaker proposed a partnership with Russell, leveraging Russell's connections to give their venture credibility.
  • This partnership led to the formation of a more structured and professional approach to their music business.

"How about if I'll make the records, I'll do all the work, and you could be my partner?"

• First Major Label Deal:
  • Columbia Records signed them for a substantial amount, marking their transition to a professional level.
  • Despite the lucrative deal, the speaker acknowledges that they made very little compared to the label.

"They just signed us for a lot of money to be in business with us."

• Concept and Execution:
  • The idea was to explain hip hop's musicality by covering a familiar rock song, "Walk This Way" by Aerosmith.
  • This cover helped bridge the gap between rock and hip hop, making the latter more accessible to a broader audience.

"If run DMC does it and deliver it like a rap song, it still walked this way. It still sounds like the Aerosmith song."

• Impact on Mainstream Success:
  • The cover became very successful, effectively communicating that hip hop was indeed music.
  • This collaboration played a significant role in bringing hip hop into the mainstream.

"It ended up becoming very successful. But I saw it more as a way to communicate an idea."

• Initial Connection:
  • The speaker met the Beastie Boys through mutual friends and started collaborating with them as a DJ.
  • They transitioned from punk rock to rap, which felt more authentic to their current experiences.

"I suggested, why don't we just, let's do rap."

• Authenticity and Evolution:
  • The shift to rap was driven by a desire to stay true to their evolving interests and the cultural wave of the time.
  • The success of "Cookie Puss" reinforced this direction.

"It was like it was truer to who we were in that moment."

• Initial Meeting and Challenges:
  • The first meeting with the Red Hot Chili Peppers was marked by a sense of dark energy and lack of trust, later attributed to their drug problems.
  • This initial encounter led to the decision not to work with them at that time.

"It felt like this is not good energy, felt like this is dark energy."

• Successful Collaboration Post-Recovery:
  • After the band members got sober, the speaker reconnected with them, leading to a successful collaboration.
  • The first album they worked on together was "Blood Sugar Sex Magik," recorded in a unique setting to create a fresh experience.

"We recorded it in this old mansion on Laurel Canyon."

• Innovative Recording Approach:
  • The decision to record in a rented house instead of a traditional studio aimed to create a new and inspiring environment for the band.
  • This approach was intended to make the recording process feel more like a first-time experience.

"Let's rent a big house, live in the house, record in the house and it won't be like any experience they had before."

• The speaker's journey in the music industry involved learning from mentors, navigating independent distribution, forming strategic partnerships, and making innovative decisions that bridged cultural gaps and brought hip hop into the mainstream. Their collaborations with LL Cool J, the Beastie Boys, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers highlight a career marked by adaptability, authenticity, and a keen sense of timing in the evolving music landscape.

• The concept of a "hit" is subjective and often tied to familiarity.
• "Give it Away" by Red Hot Chili Peppers was different from other songs on the radio at the time.
• The song's success was not predictable; it was loved by the creator but sounded foreign and different.

"I can't say hit. Like, I don't know what a hit sounds like, so it's hard for me to say hit. I knew that I loved it and I remember going to Warner Brothers when they were deciding what to put out and saying, I think this is the song that people will really react to."

• The speaker emphasizes that predicting a hit is challenging due to the unique and unfamiliar sound of "Give it Away."

"Give it away sounded different than everything else. Not different from the Chili Peppers, but different than anything you heard on the radio."

• The success of "Give it Away" was evident in hindsight, and the song's quality and the accompanying video contributed to its popularity.

"But I love the song and also they made an incredible video, but the song was great."

• The Chili Peppers' transition from EMI to Warner Brothers was complicated by legal issues and cold feet from Epic Records.
• The band's signing with Warner Brothers was facilitated by Mo Austin, who had a good relationship with the band.

"I told Mo Austin, who ran Warner brothers, just so you know, Chili Peppers, the thing with Epic's kind of going south. You may want to give them a call. And he called them and worked it out immediately."

• The album "Blood Sugar Sex Magik" was very successful, selling millions of records.

"I think it sold, I don't know, six, 7 million. A lot. A lot of records."

• Johnny Cash was in a challenging phase of his career, performing in small venues and having been dropped by Columbia Records.
• The collaboration was initiated by the speaker's belief in making cool records with Cash, despite Cash's initial skepticism.

"He was the biggest artist on Columbia records, and then he ends up getting dropped from Columbia, the label that he was the. He sold more records for Columbia than all of their other artists combined."

• The collaboration was life-changing for both Cash and the speaker, leading to a deep friendship.

"Just amazing. Life changing for me, for sure."

• The speaker couldn't predict the success of "99 Problems" but liked the song.
• Jay-Z had confidence in the song's potential impact.

"I remember Jay when we finished the song, he's like, do you know what this is? I said, no. And he's like, I'll show you what it is."

• The speaker's approach is to ensure the song is good before releasing it, without predicting audience reactions.

"I can never guess how anyone's going to react. I think if I like it, maybe someone will like it."

• The speaker has experienced five house fires, which is an unusual and unfortunate occurrence.
• A fire incident led to the opportunity to work with Neil Young, as the speaker couldn't travel due to smoke inhalation.

"Recovering from the smoke inhalation, I couldn't travel, so I was staying home. I'd lost my voice, I couldn't talk. And I get a call from Neil saying that he has the Shangri la, the studio that I work at, booked, and he's going to make a new album."

• Neil Young's recording process is unique, focusing on the full moon.

"Neil only likes to record on and around the full moon. Do you know that about him?"

• The collaboration faced challenges, but the final product was successful due to creative problem-solving and listening to the drummer's insights.

"Ralph told us how to listen to it. He's like, well, take that out. Take that. Take that part out. Okay. Just listen. Listen to this part. Listen what's happening here? And Ralph was right."

• The book aims to share the creative process and principles that work universally, beyond music.
• It avoids referencing famous artists to focus on the reader's potential creativity.

"The approach has nothing to do with music. It's not about music. It's a way of being. It's a way of being in the world, a way of paying attention."

• The book took seven or eight years to develop, focusing on decoding intuitive studio practices into universal principles.

"It took seven or eight years to try to understand why the things that happen in the studio, that work, that happen through intuition and without knowing how they work, to try to decipher and decode, are there principles at play that are universal and helpful for someone else?"

• The goal is to help readers see themselves in the creative process, rather than idolizing famous artists.

"By leaving the famous people's names out, the reader is the artist in all of the stories in the book."

• Creative problems are often self-inflicted, either through self-doubt or overconfidence.
• The speaker emphasizes persistence and patience in the creative process, willing to try many ideas until something works.

"I know I'm willing to go forever until we get to something good. I have self doubt something good will happen. Now that's out of my control. I don't know how long it'll take, but I know I'm willing to go for the ride."

• Each failed idea is a step closer to finding the right solution.

"Every time you have a bad idea and it doesn't work, you're one step closer to finding the answer, because you know you've ruled out something."

• The speaker values savoring each moment and experience, such as enjoying each bite of food.
• This approach contrasts with the speaker's past of rushing through meals due to competition with siblings.

"I grew up with brothers and we always got first, but we didn't always get second. So we try to just shove it down our gullets and get to the next."

• The conversation concludes with mutual admiration and plans to continue discussions in the future.

"I consider you a creative genius. I know you would never say that about yourself, but I feel privileged to be your buddy."

• The podcast episode ends with acknowledgments and advertisements, which are not included in the study notes.