#986 - Esther Perel - How Love Dies: The Psychology of Cheating & Attraction

In this engaging discussion, Esther Perel and Chris explore the complexities of human relationships, focusing on attachment theory, the dynamics of romantic and workplace relationships, and societal influences on gender roles. They delve into why attachment systems might mislead us, how early relationship idealization can obscure red flags, and the potential for attachment theory to face future scrutiny. They also discuss the evolving roles of men and women, the impact of societal changes like increased female workplace participation, and the importance of trust, belonging, recognition, and resilience in workplace dynamics. The conversation highlights the need for understanding and empathy in both personal and professional relationships, emphasizing the value of play and creativity in fostering connection.

• Early relationship stages often involve wearing "rose-colored glasses," leading to an idealized view of the partner.
• This idealization can cause individuals to overlook potential red flags in the relationship.
• Some people hope their partner will never change, while others expect change and are in love with their partner's potential.

"Oddly, our attachment systems lie to us. They lie to us. And this was put to me earlier this year is red flags. Don't look red if you're wearing rose colored glasses."

• The metaphor of rose-colored glasses highlights how early relationship stages can obscure one's judgment, preventing the recognition of red flags.

"The early stage is a stage of idealization. You project onto the person you feel so good about yourself in their presence."

• Idealization involves projecting positive traits onto a partner, which can enhance feelings of self-worth but may not reflect reality.

• Attachment theory is a prevalent model in psychology, explaining how early relationships influence adult behavior.
• The theory may face scrutiny or a "replication crisis," similar to past theories like the Oedipus complex.
• It's a useful framework for understanding relationships, but its truthfulness is questioned.

"It's strange to think about how much of our adult life is puppeted by things that happened before we could even remember it."

• This reflects on how early experiences, as explained by attachment theory, can unconsciously shape adult behavior.

"Attachment is a theory. It's a very powerful and a very useful theory. It's a vocabulary, it's a meaning making system, it's a theory."

• Acknowledges that while attachment theory is a powerful tool for understanding relationships, it remains a theory and not an absolute truth.

• Relationships often involve replicating core models of attachment, which can be both a challenge and an opportunity for change.
• The dynamics of a relationship can shift from initial attraction to conflict as partners work through past patterns.
• The usefulness of attachment theory lies in its ability to help individuals understand and potentially change their relationship patterns.

"You really found each other, it's a very interesting way you found each other and it allows you to both replicate your core models of relatedness or attachment."

• Highlights how partners often choose each other based on familiar attachment models, which can be both comforting and challenging.

"The very thing that is originally attractive can become the very source of conflict and disagreement later."

• This underscores the paradox of attraction, where initial traits that draw partners together can later become points of contention.

• Traditional gender roles often dictate the dynamics of emotional support in relationships, with women often being the primary emotional outlet for men.
• Cultural and evolutionary factors both play roles in shaping these dynamics.
• The conversation critiques the polarization of gender roles and emphasizes the importance of understanding cultural systems.

"Have women often been the primary social outlet for men? Yes. Does that have to do with something that men want? Not necessarily."

• Points out the societal expectation for women to be the emotional support for men, which may not align with men's desires or needs.

"I think these days we're sliding into real polarizing men versus women."

• Critiques the increasing polarization and tribalism in gender discussions, advocating for a more nuanced understanding.

• Male friendships and emotional vulnerability have changed over time, influenced by both cultural and evolutionary factors.
• There is a tension between the need for men to open up emotionally and the limited outlets available for them to do so.
• The conversation explores how societal expectations and cultural indoctrination impact male relationships and emotional expression.

"51% of men lack a single confidant for emotional support."

• Highlights the challenge many men face in finding emotional support outside of their primary relationships.

"For so many centuries, we saw masculinity as obvious, luminous, simple, doesn't need explanation."

• Reflects on the historical perception of masculinity as self-evident, contrasting with the current need for constant validation.

• The interaction between cultural and evolutionary influences shapes gender roles and relationship dynamics.
• Both cultural indoctrination and evolutionary predispositions contribute to how men and women relate to each other.
• The conversation emphasizes the complexity of these interactions and the importance of considering both perspectives.

"You come in with a certain predisposition that is biological or innate. And then there is a culture that sits on top of it."

• Explains how innate biological predispositions are influenced and shaped by cultural contexts.

"The beauty is how they interact with each other. Not which one has the supremacy over the other."

• Emphasizes the importance of understanding the interplay between cultural and evolutionary factors rather than prioritizing one over the other.

• Masculinity is not straightforward; it is difficult to acquire and easy to lose.
• The perception of masculinity involves societal and cultural conditioning.

"So I began to think masculinity is not nearly that simple, not nearly that obvious, maybe not nearly so easily acquired. Actually. It is hard to acquire and easy to lose."

• Masculinity is nuanced and involves more than traditional stereotypes; it requires continuous effort to maintain.

• Male loneliness is not exclusive to men; it affects women and children too, but manifests more in males due to socialization.
• Boys are often socialized to suppress distress and not seek emotional support.
• The modern, contactless world exacerbates loneliness, as traditional play and social negotiation opportunities diminish.
• Boys and men receive less guidance on handling emotions and relationships compared to girls and women.

"I think that male loneliness is not just male. I think that there is women, girls, children. I don't think it's just gendered. I think it's more so for men."

• The socialization of boys promotes emotional suppression, contributing to loneliness.

"What makes the boys feel lonely is, yes, I do think it's a whole increase of the contactless world that we're living in."

• The lack of real-world social interactions and emotional guidance leaves boys underserved in emotional development.

• Men often do not receive the same level of support from peers as women do.
• Cultural movements have historically supported women more visibly, leaving men feeling left behind.
• Men often view other men's struggles as a threat to their own status.

"Outwardly, men will say we should support men inwardly when it happens one on one. Men see a man who's struggling a lot of the time as kind of a bit icky and a little bit of an unreliable ally."

• Men are conditioned to view other struggling men with suspicion, affecting interpersonal support.

"The article really brought it into land... men are not prepared to show up for other men in the way that women are prepared to show up for women."

• Societal norms discourage men from supporting each other, unlike the support women offer each other.

• Men and women have culturally defined scripts for expressing emotions.
• Men often express needs for tenderness and affection through sex due to cultural restrictions on emotional expression.
• Women face stigma around sexual openness, enforced by other women.

"Every gender has its licensed language for what it is allowed to want, for what it is allowed to express, for how it is allowed to express it."

• Cultural codes dictate acceptable emotional and social expressions for each gender.

"If people say all he wants is sex, they often are making a big mistake. All he wants is the things that sex enables him to experience that he doesn't have the permission to ask in other ways."

• Men's sexual behavior often masks deeper emotional needs restricted by societal norms.

• Both men and women face internalized pressures from their own gender groups.
• Men enforce weakness shaming among themselves, while women enforce slut shaming.
• These internal pressures are often stronger than those from the opposite gender.

"The weakness shaming around men and the slut shaming around women primarily come from their own sex, not from the other sex."

• Gender-based pressures are internalized and perpetuated within gender groups, affecting self-perception and behavior.

"The pressure from within is often stronger than actually how you are perceived on the other side."

• Internal group dynamics significantly influence gender behavior and perceptions.

• There is a noticeable segregation of activities by gender in some cultures, which impacts social dynamics.
• This segregation can lead to misunderstandings and a lack of empathy between genders.
• Historical and cultural contexts influence current gender relations and perceptions.

"I found the segregation of the sports activities interesting. I found the segregations of the summer camps interesting."

• Gender segregation in activities can contribute to a lack of understanding and empathy between genders.

"It became young 5 year old boys or 6 year old boys that had to hide that they were inviting girls to their birthdays."

• Early socialization practices contribute to gender segregation and the development of adversarial dynamics.

• The intersection of gender dynamics and authoritarianism is explored, emphasizing historical patterns of gender polarization during authoritarian regimes.
• Authoritarianism often begins with sexual oppression and repression, targeting anything perceived as feminine or weak, which is historically linked to masculinity.
• The rise of authoritarianism tends to enforce strict gender roles, pushing men and women into traditional roles, creating a neat and controllable social order.

"The reason weakness is so scary is not because it's weak, it's because it's considered feminine. And the rejection of the feminine that is at the core of how masculinity has often reinforced itself throughout history."

• This quote highlights the historical association of femininity with weakness and how masculinity has often been defined in opposition to it.

"Every time you see fascism rising, you see a complete split between men and women."

• This observation connects the rise of fascism with increased gender polarization, reinforcing traditional gender roles.

• National Socialism is cited as an example where traditional gender roles were enforced, with women confined to domestic roles and men to public life.
• Degenerate art, which depicted men and women in non-traditional roles, was rejected in favor of art that reinforced traditional gender roles.

"The beautiful paintings is that everybody's sitting around the table and she's serving the home-cooked food like a good frau line."

• This quote illustrates how art was used to reinforce traditional gender roles during the Nazi regime.

• There is a contemporary trend towards traditionalism, with movements like the "trad wife" movement and increased church attendance reflecting a return to rigid gender roles.
• Despite these trends, there is also greater acceptance of LGBTQ+ rights, creating a paradox of simultaneous progress and regression in gender and sexual norms.

"There is a pushback. There is a trad wife movement. There are people just increasing rates of church attendance, which I think is kind of a harken back to that."

• This quote reflects the current societal push towards traditional values amidst broader social changes.

• Major technological shifts create anxiety among men, challenging their traditional roles as providers and protectors.
• The rapid pace of change can be threatening, especially to older generations, leading to a retreat into traditional gender roles.

"Whenever there is massive technological shifts, the men experience it as tremendously threatening."

• This quote explains the connection between technological advancements and the reinforcement of traditional masculinity.

• The importance of positive father figures is highlighted, noting historical figures who had strained relationships with their fathers.
• There is a call for men to redefine masculinity and embrace roles that include emotional contributions, not just material ones.

"Good fathers may be able to stop world wars in that regard."

• The quote suggests the significant impact of father-son relationships on historical events and personal development.

• Deadness in relationships is characterized by complacency, neglect, and a lack of curiosity and engagement.
• Infidelity is often driven by a desire to feel alive rather than purely by lust or boredom.

"A sense of deadness in the relationship. What's deadness? Complacency, neglect, estrangement, lack of laughter, lack of play, lack of curiosity."

• This quote defines deadness in relationships, emphasizing the emotional disconnect that can lead to infidelity.

• Infidelity is explored as a complex issue that can arise in committed, monogamous relationships due to a lack of vitality and imagination.
• The discussion emphasizes understanding and addressing relational betrayals without resorting to polarizing judgments.

"If people brought 10% of the creative imagination that they bring to their affairs into their primary relationships, their life would be very different."

• This quote suggests that the effort and creativity often invested in affairs could transform primary relationships if applied there.

• Love is described as a verb that requires active practice and engagement, not just a spontaneous feeling.
• Maintaining passion in a relationship involves effort and ritual, similar to participating in a sport.

"Love is a verb that you have. You know, it's not a permanent state of enthusiasm. You practice it."

• This quote emphasizes the active nature of maintaining love and passion in relationships.

• There is an interest in exploring other forms of partnerships beyond romantic relationships, such as friendships, creative partnerships, and familial relationships.
• The concept of pairs often involves a third element, which can influence the dynamics of the relationship.

"I began to think about other pairs. I got interested in other forms of partnerships, you know, friendship."

• This quote highlights the exploration of diverse partnership dynamics beyond romantic relationships.

• Women tend to get bored with monogamy more quickly than men, due to differences in sexual desire and contextual needs.
• Female sexuality is often more subjective and contextual, focusing on the story and romance rather than mechanical desire.
• Women’s sexual interest is often driven by the relationship dynamics and personal experiences rather than just physical attraction.

"We tend to look at male sexuality as unprompted, always ready to go... And as if the interior state of the man doesn't influence their sex life."

• The quote highlights the stereotype of male sexuality as constant and unaffected by emotional states, which is a misconception.

"Female sexuality is often seen as more subjective, as more contextual, not necessarily rooted in desire per se, but often in willingness."

• This quote explains that female sexuality often depends on the context and emotional connection rather than mere physical desire.

"What turns her on is what's happening to her, not what's happening to him."

• The quote underscores that women's sexual arousal is more about personal experience and emotional engagement.

• Men often express that seeing their partner turned on is a major source of their own arousal, whereas women focus more on their own experiences.
• Men are typically more mechanical in their sexual arousal, while women require a sense of safety and emotional connection.
• The concept of "predatory fear" in men can inhibit sexual freedom unless they feel their partner is genuinely interested.

"Nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on."

• This quote indicates that men derive pleasure from their partner's arousal, which alleviates concerns about being predatory.

"Releasing the burden of caretaking is the primary obstacle for women."

• The quote highlights that women’s sexual desire can be hindered by their caretaking roles, affecting their ability to focus on personal pleasure.

• Modern dynamics have shifted, with women gaining more agency and financial independence, impacting traditional roles in relationships.
• The introduction of women into the workplace has changed how men and women relate both intimately and professionally.
• The evolving roles require a reevaluation of relationship dynamics, focusing on mutual trust, belonging, recognition, and resilience.

"Women being no longer financial prisoners of their husband, being able to have a little bit more agency or a lot more agency inside a relationship."

• The quote reflects the increased independence and agency women have gained, altering traditional relationship dynamics.

"Four primary pillars of relationships in the workplace... trust, belonging, recognition, and collective resilience."

• This quote identifies the key elements necessary for successful relationships, applicable both in personal and professional contexts.

• Trust, belonging, recognition, and collective resilience are crucial for workplace relationships and culture.
• Remote work has challenged traditional workplace dynamics, emphasizing the importance of soft skills and interpersonal connections.
• The power of transgression and breaking rules can provide a sense of freedom and connection in both personal and professional settings.

"Trust is one of the salves against conflict and disagreement."

• The quote emphasizes the importance of trust in mitigating conflicts and fostering a positive work environment.

"The power of transgression, breaking the rules... gives people a sense of freedom."

• This quote suggests that transgression can be a source of empowerment and connection when done playfully.

• Play and creativity are effective tools for improving relational skills and fostering meaningful connections.
• Esther Perel has developed tools like card games and podcasts to enhance relationship quality in an engaging and playful manner.
• The quality of relationships is a significant determinant of overall life satisfaction and well-being.

"The quality of your relationships, ultimately, is what determines the quality of your life."

• This quote highlights the fundamental importance of nurturing high-quality relationships for a fulfilling life.

"Play has often been a place where taking risk is safe and fun."

• The quote underscores the role of play in safely exploring and improving relational dynamics.