In this episode of 20 VC, host Harry Stebbings converses with Palantir's CTO Shyam Sankar about the defense tech industry's evolution and the challenges of government contracting. Sankar criticizes the government's preference for process over content, which he believes stifles catastrophic success and innovation, advocating for a model that rewards risk-taking and maverick innovators. They discuss the importance of defense tech companies like Palantir in shaping modern government procurement strategies, moving away from traditional cost-plus models towards value-driven, product-based solutions. Sankar emphasizes the need for the DoD to pick winners to foster a competitive, innovative defense tech ecosystem. He also reflects on Palantir's own transformations, the importance of talent over process, and the potential of AI to address institutional legitimacy, suggesting a future where AI partners with institutions for real transformation amidst geopolitical instability.
"The greatest travesty of all this is in order to constrain the variance and outcomes, we have constrained ourselves to mediocrity. We don't want projects to fail catastrophically. But that also means you can't have projects succeed catastrophically. The amount of process we put in place just ensures mediocrity."
The quote highlights the dilemma between risk management and innovation. By overly focusing on avoiding failure, organizations may inadvertently stifle the potential for groundbreaking success, settling for average results.
"Over the last 18 months, we've seen investment in defense tech skyrocket it, Palantir, Angeril, Helsing in Europe being the leaders."
The quote indicates a trend in defense technology investment, with a few key players leading the market. It sets the stage for a deeper discussion on government interactions with these tech companies.
"Really understand how governments buy, which governments are best at it, what that looks like moving forwards, what the DoD can do to improve."
This quote outlines the central questions the podcast intends to address, focusing on the nuances of government procurement processes and the role of companies like Palantir in that space.
"It comes from my father. My father. As a young man in his 20s, he left India to set up the first pharmaceutical manufacturing facility in Africa."
The quote explains the origin of Shyam Sankar's work ethic, emphasizing the role of his father's experiences and the impact they had on shaping his drive and determination.
"We suffered horrible armed violence. He was almost executed. He had to start over. We fled Nigeria. We resettled in the U.S., effectively as refugees, starting from scratch."
This quote provides a glimpse into the traumatic events that shaped Shyam's early life and the resilience his family demonstrated in the face of such adversity, highlighting the importance of gratitude and perseverance.
"It's really the unit. There's all these unsung heroes. It's better to think about it as a rock band, not a solo act."
The quote conveys the idea that success is rarely a solo endeavor, and it's the collective effort and synergy of a group that leads to remarkable achievements.
"I think the most productive mind frame is something like, I have good luck, and the only thing I actually have control over is how hard I work."
This quote reflects Shyam's belief that a productive mindset involves focusing on hard work rather than relying on the concept of luck, which is less tangible and controllable.
"I would have much rather failed working on something that I thought was so important."
The quote illustrates Shyam's commitment to working on meaningful projects, even at the risk of failure, underscoring the importance he places on the significance of the work over its guaranteed success.
"I'm going to refuse to accept any revenue that's services based from you. And instead I'm going to build a product and I'm going to keep investing in the product."
This quote encapsulates the innovative approach Palantir took in selling to the government, rejecting the conventional service-based revenue model in favor of product investment and a subscription-based model.
"The low entropy, the lowest path, least resistance is to try to pay someone by the hour."
The quote highlights the government's default procurement method, which poses a barrier to companies like Palantir that are trying to introduce a more product-centric model.
"What do you think has enabled you to do that so successfully? And then do you get real margin optimization? Because once you're in, you're retained. It's such a sticky customer."
The question points to Palantir's successful strategy of securing a foothold within government agencies and then expanding its presence, which leads to strong customer retention and financial benefits for the company.
"It very much is about expanding the product surface area as opposed to the license surface area, or I'm trying to get more users."
This quote emphasizes that the focus of expansion in government SaaS is on enhancing the product's capabilities, not just increasing the number of licenses sold.
"You need to be in Djibouti or in Kandahar or in balad or in Rammstein sitting with the users to understand what's next."
The quote highlights the importance of being physically present with users in their environments to understand their needs and develop relevant product expansions.
"You're delivering software into air gapped environments that are tightly controlled and constrained, and people need clearances to access them."
This quote describes the unique challenges of deploying software in secure government environments, which requires a different approach to product development and delivery.
"The whole government system is geared up to buy hardware because they kind of, especially in the US government."
This quote points out the traditional focus of government procurement systems on hardware, which does not align well with the needs of software acquisition.
"Software R&D costs only increase. No investor thinks Microsoft's gonna spend less in the future on R&D than they spend in the present moment."
The quote reflects the misconception in government procurement that software R&D costs should decrease over time, contrary to the industry norm where R&D costs increase.
"We had 18 months when we were not getting shot at, to turn on our industrial production, to build factories and to retool them."
This quote explains how America had a unique opportunity during World War II to ramp up its industrial production without being directly engaged in combat, which is not the case today.
"After we won the Cold War, rightly, we expected a peace dividend."
The quote addresses the expectation that defense spending would decrease after the end of the Cold War, which led to the consolidation of defense companies and a shift towards financialization.
"The core industrial problem is that we don't have a way to reward mavericks and innovators that we're breeding."
This quote identifies the fundamental issue in the defense industry: the lack of support for innovative thinkers who are essential for breakthrough developments.
"Kelly Johnson could build a plane in nine months. We can't even procure something in twice that long."
This quote contrasts the speed and efficiency of past innovators like Kelly Johnson with the current slow procurement process, highlighting the need for change.
"In an effort to have a perception of fair competition, we have created so much process that we neither have fair competition nor speed."
The quote criticizes the current procurement process for being overly concerned with the appearance of fairness at the expense of actual fair competition and efficiency.
"Pick winners, plural, to be very clear."
This quote clarifies that the strategy should be to support multiple successful companies, not just one, to promote a healthy and competitive defense tech environment.
"The peanut butter spreading, as it's kind of called. Like, I have this much money and I'm going to spread it across all the companies that have come in here, that just ensures that they're all zombies, they're neither alive nor dead."
The quote criticizes the current funding strategy of evenly distributing funds among many companies, which results in none being fully successful or innovative.
"We don't pick winners, but no, literally, you're a monopsonist. Every contract you award, you're picking a winner."
This quote challenges the DoD's claim that it does not pick winners by pointing out that every contract awarded by definition selects a winner, and thus the DoD should consciously support the most promising companies.
"There's an aspect of government that is a jobs program, that is welfare for the people."
This quote emphasizes the economic function of government, particularly in the context of providing jobs and welfare.
"Study after study shows that you get these siber grants and your company never actually achieves scale."
The quote criticizes the SBIR program for not leading to significant growth in companies, suggesting it may not be an effective strategy for fostering large-scale defense innovation.
"So absolute dollars, yes, are bigger. But as a percentage of GDP, what do you think is the defense insurance premium the country should pay every year to protect Pax Americana and the western international rules based order?"
This quote questions the current defense spending in relation to GDP and its sufficiency in protecting the established international order.
"I think it's between where we are now and where it was during the cold war."
Shyam Sankar suggests that the ideal defense spending level should be between the lower current percentage of GDP and the higher percentages seen during the Cold War.
"What is there to learn from you? Look at the tactics, you look at what is working on the battlefield."
Shyam Sankar points out that defense procurement must learn and adapt based on actual battlefield experiences and evolving tactics.
"One wish it would be to return to a structure that we actually used to use, which is to have multiple competing programs to go after the same capability."
The speaker advocates for the reintroduction of competing government programs to spur innovation and technological advancement.
"How does it change processes much less than people think."
Shyam Sankar downplays the impact of leadership changes on defense procurement processes, suggesting continuity despite changes in government.
"The capital class has showed up. The capital has showed up. The entrepreneurs have showed up."
Shyam Sankar acknowledges the significant participation of Silicon Valley in the defense sector.
"Content, not process, is the eternal substance."
This quote asserts that the core value of a business lies in its content or substance, rather than the processes it follows.
"Talent spotting eats strategy for breakfast."
Shyam Sankar highlights the critical role of identifying and leveraging individual talent over rigid strategic planning.
"You're much better off designing a role around who they are, rather than saying, what role can I slot you into?"
The speaker advocates for customizing roles to fit individual talents, rather than forcing individuals into predefined roles.
"You know, there's going to be ups and downs, but they're so fundamentally talented that you're going to stick with them and you're not going to be judging them. Work to work."
This quote emphasizes the importance of commitment to talented individuals despite the inevitable fluctuations in their performance, suggesting a focus on their long-term potential rather than short-term results.
"How do you manage edge? Talent is a very open ended question, but I think that's roughly how you would think about it, which is like, look, I'm really here to support. I need to create the environment that allows your art to flourish."
This quote discusses the role of a manager in fostering a supportive environment that enables talented individuals to thrive and produce their best work.
"If they're really going through a rough batch for a long time, that might be part of your... I think that's going to be a judgment call as the talent manager."
This quote acknowledges the difficult decisions that a manager must make when an artist is consistently not meeting expectations, indicating the need for a nuanced approach to managing talent.
"Budgets are anticreative. So you have to think about what's the right mix of like, hey, at this moment we really need budgets."
This quote suggests that while budgets are necessary, they can be detrimental to the creative process if not managed carefully, highlighting the delicate balance needed between financial constraints and creative freedom.
"My biggest hiring mistakes were hiring for a factory, hiring what I thought I would need hiring... It's never worked for me."
This quote reveals the speaker's realization that hiring based on preconceived notions or external advice often leads to poor outcomes, and that a more organic, talent-focused approach is preferable.
"The less obvious part of this sort of reinvention is reinventing yourself... And it might be true that some person who joined this company two months ago is going to be more sophisticated at this new problem than you, who joined five years ago."
This quote discusses the personal challenges that come with an organization's transformation, emphasizing the need for individuals to adapt and grow in order to remain relevant and effective.
"I think it biases towards the incumbents who own applications in the app layer... The only place you can drive that elegant integration is at the app layer."
This quote suggests that the real value of AI lies in its integration into applications, where incumbents have an advantage, rather than in the AI models themselves, which are likely to become commoditized.
"Probably the biggest one is content and process... I'm now willing to fight incrementally, almost like trench warfare, to get things to scale."
This quote reflects a change in mindset regarding the approach to scaling content, indicating a willingness to engage in a more gradual and challenging process to achieve growth.
"I'm so obsessed with the conditions around founding... How difficult it was. I just want to relish those founder stories."
This quote expresses a deep interest in the experiences and challenges faced by founders during significant historical moments, seeking to draw lessons and inspiration from their stories.
"Probably the most important one is this idea of the artist colony, that humans are unique individuals and that you maximize value by staying true to that and never letting yourself aggregate or think about them as a class."
This quote captures the philosophy of treating each individual as unique, which is central to the speaker's approach to managing and valuing talent within an organization.