20Sales What is Sales Engineering When and How to Hire Them How They Should Work With AE's How to Measure Their Success How They Change Close Rates and Sales Comp Plans with Zach Lawryk, Head of Solutions Consulting @ Rippling

In a dynamic conversation on "20 Sales," host Harry Stebbings and guest Zach Loric, head of solutions consulting at Ripling and former VP of solutions consulting at Slack, delve into the evolving role of sales engineering in modern sales organizations. They highlight the shift from seller-centric methods to buyer enablement, emphasizing the importance of understanding and adapting to the buyer's control over the sales process. Loric shares his journey from aspiring lawyer to tech sales, underscoring the value of following great people and learning from both successes and failures. They discuss the necessity of sales engineers (SEs) for technical expertise and competitive differentiation, the impact of SEs on account executive (AE) compensation, and the ideal timing for hiring SEs. The conversation also covers effective SE hiring practices, the integration of SEs into the sales process, and measuring SE success beyond close rates. Loric advises sales leaders to focus on business outcomes and empathize with customers, while also exploring the blurred lines between sales and marketing roles in the current landscape.

• Traditional sales organizations are operating with outdated practices.
• The modern sales process is more buyer-centric than seller-centric.
• Sales teams need to adapt to the buyer's control over the process.
• Buyer enablement has become more important than the traditional selling approach.

"So I think what has changed and what has broken about most sales organizations today is they're still trying to sell like they're in control of that process when the truth is they're not. The buyer is in control of the process, and it's more about buyer enablement than it's about selling anymore."

This quote highlights the shift from a seller-centric model to a buyer-centric one, emphasizing the need for sales organizations to focus on enabling the buyer rather than controlling the sales process.

• Harry Stebbings introduces the topic of sales engineering on the podcast "20 sales."
• The discussion includes the role of sales engineers, their integration into sales teams, success metrics, and collaboration with Account Executives (AEs).
• Zach Loric, with extensive experience in sales engineering, is the guest expert.
• Sales engineering is crucial for many sales teams but is often not discussed in-depth.

"We are back and welcome to 20 sales with me, Harry Stebbings. Now in the show today we discuss something we've never discussed before, but so crucial to so many sales teams, sales engineering."

Harry Stebbings introduces the episode's focus on sales engineering, a critical yet under-discussed element in sales organizations.

• Zach Loric's journey began with an interest in computer science, which shifted to political science.
• His passion for the intersection of business and technology led him into technology sales.
• Zach's career trajectory took him from Salesforce to Slack and then to Ripling.
• He initially started in technical support and transitioned to sales engineering after observing the role at Salesforce.

"I always loved the intersection of business and technology and frankly, I stumbled into technology sales."

Zach Loric explains his accidental entry into technology sales, driven by his interests in business and technology.

• Sales engineers, also known as solutions consultants or pre-sales consultants, are product experts.
• Their role is to support sales reps by tying product solutions to business value.
• The term "solutions consultant" is considered the proper term for this role.

"So the sales engineer or solutions consultant or pre sales consultant. There are a lot of different words these days. I think solution consultant is the proper term. We are a product expert, an expert in the solutions that tie to business value to help support the sales rep in the execution of their quota."

This quote defines the role of a sales engineer and underscores their importance in supporting sales reps by leveraging their product expertise to deliver business value.

• Zach Loric values the lessons learned from both successful and less successful companies.
• The common denominator in his career has been following great people.
• Quality of colleagues is a strong indicator of a company's potential success and trajectory.
• Working with smart and collaborative people is essential for a fulfilling career.

"That is a good proxy for understanding whether or not the company is going to be successful and is on the right trajectory is the quality of people you're surrounded with."

Zach Loric shares his philosophy that the caliber of one's colleagues is a reliable measure of a company's future success.

• Sales organizations must adapt to reduced attention spans and the desire for self-guided experiences.
• The selling process should focus on enabling buyers rather than withholding information.
• Sales is about assisting buyers in navigating complex decisions, not about pushing a product.

"It's more about buyer enablement than it's about selling anymore."

This quote emphasizes the need for sales teams to shift their focus from traditional selling tactics to empowering buyers to make informed decisions.

• PLG is a popular but often misunderstood concept.
• It allows product exposure in a self-service manner, but personal interaction is still valued.
• Sales should help buyers make sense of complex information, aligning with their needs.

"People still want to talk to people, but they want to talk to people on their terms."

Zach Loric points out that despite the rise of self-service models like PLG, there is still a need for personal interaction in the sales process, albeit on the buyer's terms.

• Outbound sales is not dead but has evolved with new engagement methods.
• A multi-channel approach is necessary to capture attention in the current information landscape.
• Content creation should adapt to how people consume information today, such as using a "TikTok style" approach.

"I don't think outbound is dead. I think outbound has just fundamentally changed in terms of the methods that you need to use to engage prospects, and you have to take like a multi channel approach to that."

This quote suggests that outbound sales strategies must be updated to reflect modern communication channels and content consumption habits.

• The modern consumer is overwhelmed with content and has limited time for long-form consumption.
• Sales strategies need to adapt to the current consumption habits of customers.
• Short, attention-grabbing content is becoming more necessary.

"We don't have time to consume long form content in the way that we did, but we're selling as if people have time to read these elaborate emails."

This quote emphasizes the discrepancy between current consumer behavior and traditional sales methods that rely on long-form content, such as detailed emails.

• Marketing is taking over more of the sales funnel.
• Prospects often decide to purchase before engaging with a sales representative.
• Sales strategies must adapt to this new reality where marketing content plays a significant role in the sales process.

"I see marketing now eating up so much more of the sales funnel where bluntly the prospect knows that they want to buy rippling very quickly in the process because they've been sold the content, the story, the vision, before they've ever engaged with a rep."

This quote highlights how marketing efforts are increasingly influential in the early stages of the customer's decision-making process, often before a sales rep is involved.

• Solutions engineering is becoming involved earlier in the sales process.
• Content such as short-form videos and demo vignettes are being created to engage customers sooner.
• The goal is to align with the customer's needs early to streamline the sales process.

"We're creating things like short form videos and demo vignettes and slides that are easier to consume in new formats in a way that helps the customer educate themselves earlier in that process."

This quote explains how sales teams are adapting their content to meet customers where they are and to facilitate self-education before direct engagement.

• The need to scale solutions engineering without increasing direct engagement is recognized.
• Productizing engagements and creating scalable content is a strategy to reach customers earlier without overextending resources.

"We think about what we do on a weekly basis, how we're engaging with customers, and how we might productize some of those engagements in a way that can be scaled earlier in the process."

The speaker suggests that by turning engagements into products that can be distributed, solutions engineering can reach customers earlier without the need for direct interaction.

• Technical founders often struggle with empathizing with their customers.
• The business value canvas is a tool that can help founders map out customer pains and gains.
• Aligning product features with customer outcomes is key to easier product development and sales.

"You're really wrapped up in yourself and you sometimes don't take the time to empathize with the actual customers that you're selling the solution to."

This quote stresses the importance of customer empathy in the process of developing and selling a product.

• The involvement of multiple decision-makers, like CFOs, is becoming more common.
• Sales strategies must consider the perspectives of all potential buyers.
• Demonstrating clear ROI is essential, especially when CFOs are involved.

"Having the CFO involved is always tough. But it forces you to think about true ROI, dollarized ROI, which is not always easy, especially for early stage founders."

This quote reflects the challenge and necessity of justifying the financial investment to CFOs during the sales process.

• Solutions engineers provide technical expertise and are essential for highly technical products.
• They are also a competitive differentiator in sales.
• The team composition should include solutions consultants early if competing sales teams do so.

"There's two things. One, if it's a highly technical product that requires deep expertise, oftentimes you can't have the same person be the account executive who also is going to go to that level of depth with a customer."

This quote explains the need for specialized solutions engineers in sales processes involving complex technical products.

• There is a modern movement for solutions engineers to be involved beyond the initial sale.
• The handoff between sales and customer success should be smooth.
• Early-stage companies may require solutions engineers to take on more responsibilities related to customer success.

"It ensures customer success. And early on, I would say a company of less than 50 people, that your SE is going to take on more of that responsibility."

This quote suggests that in smaller companies, solutions engineers may need to be more involved in ensuring customer success post-sale.

• Adding solutions engineers to the team should result in larger quotas for account executives.
• Solutions engineers should have a variable component in their compensation.
• The compensation structure should align the interests of account executives and solutions engineers.

"If you're going to invest in SE resources, you got to have larger quotas for the AES for sure, because the idea is you have to believe that by adding additional resources to the equation, that they'll be able to execute on a much larger quota at the same rate with additional SE resources."

This quote discusses how the introduction of solutions engineers affects the compensation and quota expectations for account executives.

• The optimal time to hire the first SE is when a company has about five to seven account executives (AEs).
• Initially, AEs need to be capable and multifaceted, handling demos, follow-ups, and technical details.
• As the team grows, an SE can provide centralized support to AEs, helping to achieve scale.

"When you get to about five to seven reps, because you're starting your first sales team, you probably need to hire more capable, multifaceted AES for the first five."

This quote indicates the transition point where a sales team grows enough to necessitate the support of a Sales Engineer to maintain efficiency and effectiveness.

• The hiring process includes a chronological interview to understand a candidate's motivations and past impact.
• It is important to evaluate both the candidate's deep expertise and their ability to present and articulate value.
• Candidates should be given an opportunity to demonstrate their skills through a practical exercise.

"There's something that we did at slack, which we haven't yet implemented at ripling, which is sort of a chronological interview, and it seems like it's a lot of time to spend, but we would spend an hour and a half going through a person's background, job by job, to understand their motivations, why they joined a company, why they left the company."

This quote explains the importance of a thorough interview process that delves into a candidate's work history and motivations to assess their suitability for the role.

• Demonstrating a product in an interview can be challenging, as familiarity can bias the interviewer.
• Candidates should demonstrate the hiring company's product but in a simplified scenario to fairly assess their competency.

"You get them to demonstrate your product and understand the value prop better than anybody, like you understand the target customer."

This quote suggests that while candidates may not deliver the best demo, their ability to connect the product's value to customer needs is what should be assessed.

• A panel for the SE demonstration should include the hiring manager, a sales representative, and another SE or SE manager.
• This diversity ensures that the SE candidate receives a well-rounded evaluation and buy-in from potential team members.

"I usually have a panel, so it's myself. Depending on how many people we have involved, you want to have the hiring manager potentially front someone from the sales side if they have the time and scale, because it's always great when you hire a new SC to have endorsement from sales counterpart to say this person's great, and another SC or SE manager."

This quote emphasizes the importance of having a diverse panel to assess the SE candidate from multiple perspectives.

• Traditional sales reps may feel their roles encroached upon by SEs, especially if they're used to handling all aspects of the sales process.
• It's important to communicate the value of team selling and the unique dynamic between SEs and AEs in front of prospects.

"One thing that I think is important to understand about SE and team selling in general, but even if both people could do exactly the same thing, there's a lot of value in having just two people on a call."

This quote highlights the strategic advantage of team selling and the distinct roles of SEs and AEs in the sales process.

• A competency-based hiring model is recommended, focusing on the candidate's ability to demonstrate value and articulate their learning process.
• Collaboration with AEs is essential for success in the SE role.

"We've developed like a competency based hiring model. We like to have them really talk through experiences where they have demonstrated value."

This quote outlines the approach to hiring based on competencies that are crucial for the success of an SE.

• Candidates should provide examples of how they've dealt with conflict and collaborated with team members.
• Interviewers should dig deeper beyond prepared answers to uncover the candidate's true collaborative nature and conflict resolution skills.

"Show me an example of how you dealt with conflict on the team."

This quote illustrates the importance of probing for specific examples to gauge a candidate's interpersonal skills and team dynamics.

• SEs should have a balance of technical knowledge and sales skills.
• Sales aptitude does not necessarily correlate with charisma but with the ability to understand customer needs and articulate the value of the technology.

"Don't think that mutually exclusive. I don't think that actually charisma necessarily corresponds to sales."

This quote challenges the assumption that charisma is required for sales success, suggesting that understanding customer needs is more critical.

• The hiring process should provide objective data to make informed decisions about candidates.
• Avoiding biases and justifications based on superficial criteria is essential for effective hiring.

"I think the biggest lessons learned is I think as you think about building your own sales process at every stage you should feel like you're receiving data and information on that candidate that's going to help you make a decision one way or the other."

This quote underscores the importance of an objective, data-driven approach to hiring sales professionals.

• Product training is essential, varying based on the company's growth stage.
• At Slack, a six-week onboarding process using WorkRamp was implemented.
• The process included self-service training, customer call exposure, and understanding the ideal customer profile.
• The goal is for SEs to feel confident in presenting the product and understanding the buyer.

"We use something called workramp to walk a candidate through a six week process where basically they have some self service training they go through, they get exposure to a lot of customer calls and they get a lot of exposure to the ideal customer profile as well."

This quote highlights the structured onboarding process adopted at Slack, emphasizing the importance of product knowledge, customer interaction, and customer profile understanding for new SEs.

• Involving SEs in customer support can accelerate product expertise.
• The feasibility of this approach depends on company size.
• Smaller companies can benefit from this exposure for SEs.

"If you have the time to do that, that can be a health way to accelerate product expertise."

The speaker suggests that integrating customer support in the onboarding process can be beneficial for SEs to gain product expertise, but it is dependent on the company's logistical capabilities.

• Early-stage companies value domain expertise over experience in selling at a certain level of annual contract value (ACV).
• SEs need credibility in the industry to effectively engage with customers.
• Sales skills can be taught more easily than industry-specific knowledge.

"But if they don't have any credibility talking to that customer, it's all for nothing."

This quote emphasizes the importance of industry credibility for SEs, especially in early-stage companies, as it is foundational for establishing trust with potential customers.

• The AE is responsible for closing the deal.
• SEs focus on ensuring the technology aligns with the customer's business needs.
• SEs handle technical evaluations and requirements, aiming for a "solution win."

"And then it is the AE's responsibility to close."

The speaker clarifies the division of responsibilities between AEs and SEs in the sales process, with AEs being the ones to finalize the deal.

• SE success measurement is complex due to non-correlated factors.
• Close rate can be an indicator, but SEs also help qualify deals early.
• Success can be measured by the close rate of deals where a "solution win" is achieved.

"He measures how the deals where the close rate of deals, where they've achieved the solution win, and all the things that they did to achieve said solution win is their measures for success of whether or not ses are effective."

This quote discusses an approach to measure SE success by focusing on the achievement of a solution win and its impact on deal close rates.

• Inability to work with AEs is a major red flag.
• SEs must be self-starters, builders, and willing to engage in various activities.
• Early signs of conflict or lack of willingness to participate in essential tasks indicate problems.

"If that's not working, it's never going to work."

The speaker points out that the ability to collaborate with AEs is critical for an SE's success, and failure to do so is a significant concern.

• Customer-centric approaches remain unchanged.
• Multi-hour discovery calls are no longer effective.
• Sales playbook is analogous to sports strategies applied for desired outcomes.

"It's all about the customer."

This quote reaffirms the timeless importance of focusing on the customer in sales tactics.

• Understanding business outcomes for buyers is crucial.
• Video, especially asynchronous video, is a favored tool for pipeline development and customer engagement.
• Vivint is praised for creating a customer-centric community and engaging solution consulting leaders.

"Take the time to truly understand the business outcomes you're enabling for the buyer and optimize accordingly."

The speaker advises sales leaders to focus on the buyer's business outcomes, suggesting that this understanding is key to optimizing sales strategies.