What is the Bible with Dr. Tim Mackie

Host Seth Price engages in a deep conversation with Dr. Tim Mackey about the formation and significance of the biblical canon, focusing on both the Old and New Testaments. Mackey, co-founder of the Bible Project, discusses the interconnected nature of biblical texts, likening them to an aspen forest with shared roots, emphasizing the importance of understanding the historical and cultural contexts in which these texts were written. He highlights the role of Jesus and the apostles in shaping the New Testament and addresses the inclusion of non-canonical texts, advocating for a broader exploration of biblical literature to enrich understanding.

• The term "canon" refers to the collection of books recognized as authoritative scripture by a religious community.
• Historically, the Bible was not always a single bound volume but a collection of scrolls, which influenced perceptions of what constituted scripture.
• Different Jewish communities before Jesus had varying views on which texts were considered part of the sacred scriptures, leading to diverse collections.

"The Bible is actually older than that technology. So that's called the codex form. And that came into prominence in the first through third centuries after Jesus."

• The codex form, a bound book, became common after the time of Jesus, but the Bible existed long before as separate scrolls.

"Jewish communities before Jesus didn't seem to because you didn't have two covers binding it. They didn't have a lot of debates or hang ups about what exact books were in and what books might be related but not necessarily apart."

• The lack of a single bound volume meant there was less debate over the inclusion of specific books, leading to varied collections of sacred texts.

• The diversity of biblical collections is evident in the differences between Protestant, Catholic, and other Christian Bibles.
• The Protestant Bible typically includes 66 books, while Catholic Bibles include additional texts known as the Apocrypha or Deuterocanon.
• This diversity reflects historical and theological developments within different Christian traditions.

"That's why you go to the bookstore today and you'll see Bible that has 66 books. Or you'll go and you'll see what's called a Catholic Bible that'll have something called the Apocrypha or the Deuterocanon, and that'll have some more literature."

• The number of books in a Bible can vary depending on the tradition, reflecting historical and theological differences.

• The variations in the biblical canon are not something to fear but rather an opportunity to understand how God has worked through history.
• Recognizing the historical development of the Bible can enrich one's understanding of scripture and its role in faith.

"I think it tells us something beautiful about how God has chosen to work in history. But it's not like, I don't think there's nothing to be scared of here."

• Understanding the historical context of the Bible's development can provide a deeper appreciation of its role and significance in religious life.

• The transition from scrolls to codex (book form) marked a significant technological shift in how scriptures were compiled and accessed.
• This shift influenced the perception and formation of what constituted the "Bible" as a unified text.

"That technology which is called a codex, which is like two covers with the back binding and a bunch of individual pages, you know, stitched or glued together, that's a really old technology."

• The codex form allowed for the compilation of multiple texts into a single volume, impacting how scriptures were perceived and used.

• Initiatives like the Bible Project aim to demystify biblical themes and make theological education accessible to a broader audience.
• These projects use modern technology and media to engage with complex theological topics in an understandable way.

"We release short animated videos that are not for kids, though kids do enjoy them, but they're really aimed at adults trying to demystify the main themes and the books of the Bible and where it came from and how it works and so on."

• The Bible Project seeks to make theological education accessible through engaging and understandable content, appealing to both adults and children.

• Analogies, such as those explaining the Trinity, are used to make complex theological concepts more relatable and understandable.
• These analogies, while imperfect, help bridge the gap between abstract theological ideas and tangible understanding.

"Imagine you're a two dimensional person, a three dimensional object appeared to you. It would seem impossible. Then we say, oh, perhaps God is like a multidimensional type of reality and us poor little 3D creatures, it just breaks our categories."

• Analogies help to conceptualize complex theological ideas, making them more accessible to a wider audience.

• The Hebrew Scriptures, or the Old Testament, are often misunderstood as a collection of independent books, similar to separate plants in a nursery.
• The true nature of these texts is more like an interconnected aspen grove, where all trees are part of one organism, sharing a common root.
• The stories within the Bible originated from oral traditions passed down through generations before being written down, starting with Moses.
• Moses is credited with writing parts of the first five books, but these texts were shaped and added to by others after his time.

"Many of us think about that these books came into existence in a similar way that if, like, you went to, like, a garden nursery... However, if you pay really close attention to what the books themselves within the Bible tell us about how they came into existence, they give us a very different story."

• The metaphor of the nursery versus the aspen grove illustrates the misconception of the Bible as a collection of separate works rather than an interconnected whole.

"It's not until you get to Moses that you get the first mention of the writing of the Bible in the Bible."

• The first written records of the Bible began with Moses, highlighting the transition from oral to written tradition.

• A minority group of prophets and leaders within Israel were responsible for preserving and shaping the biblical texts.
• The Babylonian exile was a pivotal event that led to the final formation of the Hebrew Bible, similar to a forest regrowing after a fire.
• The interconnected nature of the Old Testament is akin to a network of Wikipedia pages, constantly referencing and linking to each other.

"And so the whole complex history of Israel, you have a minority view, a minority report of prophets, of priests, of some kings who want to follow the God of Abraham."

• The Bible's formation was influenced by a minority group within Israel committed to preserving their religious traditions.

"And something happened there where the final, like, forest, there was a burn in the aspen forest and it burned all the trees at the same time. And then they all started regrowing from that root."

• The exile acted as a catalyst for the consolidation and regrowth of biblical texts.

• There is uncertainty about the existence of a Jewish canon before the Babylonian exile.
• Post-exilic literature, including the Apocrypha and pseudepigraphy, represents a "remix phase" where new texts were inspired by existing Scriptures.
• These texts offer insights into ancient Jewish interpretations and are considered valuable despite not being part of the core canon.

"What Jewish scholars and scribes continued to do was to read and reflect and to produce new texts. And there's a whole body of literature that's wonderful and fascinating."

• The post-exilic period saw the creation of additional Jewish literature that expanded on traditional biblical themes.

"Ancient Jews didn't have the hang ups that we do about a book like Judas. Is it in the collection? Is it out of the collection? It doesn't. It's awesome."

• Ancient Jewish readers valued texts for their insights rather than strictly categorizing them as canonical or non-canonical.

• Jesus and the apostles were familiar with both the Old Testament and the broader body of Jewish literature.
• The New Testament writers often referenced and borrowed language from these texts, indicating their broader influence.

"And to me, what really opened my eyes to this was that Jesus and the apostles are familiar not just with what we call the Old Testament, but they're familiar with the whole forest."

• The teachings of Jesus and the apostles were deeply rooted in the broader context of Jewish literature beyond just the Old Testament.

• The process of selecting texts for the New Testament involved complex decisions, often likened to a reality show where texts were "voted" in or out.
• Questions about the inclusion of female voices in the biblical canon highlight ongoing discussions about representation and authorship.

"How then did we get to where we're at now? Where if it's not these 66, how did we get to pick and choose? And I guess more specifically who gets to vote?"

• The formation of the New Testament canon involved subjective decisions by early church leaders about which texts to include.

"Is there any matriarchal voice in that? Which was a question that repeatedly came to me."

• The inquiry into female voices in the Bible reflects broader concerns about gender representation in religious texts.

• Jesus and his apostles focused primarily on the texts found in the Protestant Old Testament rather than other Jewish texts.
• Jesus' claim is that the storyline of God and Israel, as interpreted in the Scriptures, is fulfilled through his death and resurrection.
• Jesus appointed a circle of close followers, the apostles, to represent him and spread his teachings, which is the foundation for the New Testament.
• The New Testament comprises the earliest Christian texts, originating from the circle of Jesus' followers that he commissioned.

"What these texts are, are the earliest Christian texts that stem back from that circle of people that he commissioned to represent him."

• This quote highlights that the New Testament texts are derived from the group of apostles directly appointed by Jesus, emphasizing their foundational role in the Christian tradition.

• The councils did not decide the contents of the Bible; instead, they surveyed which texts were widely read and practiced in the church.
• The 27 books of the New Testament were chosen because they were the most popular and connected to the earliest part of the movement.
• The process of canonization was lengthy and involved multiple councils over decades.
• The spread of these texts was gradual due to the lack of modern communication, relying on Roman roads for dissemination.

"None of these councils, as I understand them, are deciding what's in the contents of the Bible. What they're doing is surveying what are people reading, what is the universal church practicing in its weekly worship?"

• This quote explains that the process of determining the New Testament canon was based on the texts' popularity and use in early Christian worship, rather than a top-down decision by church councils.

• The Protestant Old Testament is seen as a unified collection, referred to by Jesus as the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms.
• Historically, Christians were exposed to both the core Old Testament and the Apocrypha, which enriches understanding of the core texts.
• The division between the core texts and additional literature was less significant in earlier church history.
• The printing press and Protestant-Catholic debates led to the exclusion of the Apocrypha in some Bibles starting in the early 1600s.

"For three quarters of church history, Christians have been exposed to the core part of the Old Testament and the literature that grew up around it."

• This quote underscores the historical context of the Apocrypha being part of the broader Christian literary tradition, which was only later separated from the core Old Testament texts.

• The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew; a Greek translation, the Septuagint, was created as Greek became the dominant language.
• The Septuagint was widely used in the early Jesus movement and later translated into Latin.
• Protestants typically use the Masoretic text for the Old Testament, while the Septuagint was more common in the Greek-speaking early Christian world.
• The choice of translation affects worship, Bible study, and exegetical work within different Christian traditions.

"So what happened was that translation became widely popular in the early Jesus movement. In fact, it became the main way that followers of Jesus encountered the Bible in the Greek, in Greek speaking world."

• This quote highlights the significance of the Septuagint as the primary means through which early Christians engaged with the Scriptures, reflecting the multilingual and multicultural nature of the early church.

• The discussion emphasizes the significance of original biblical languages, particularly Hebrew, in understanding the Bible's intended meanings.
• Jesus and the apostles were familiar with the Greek translation but knew the Bible in Hebrew, which played a crucial role in Jesus' life and identity.
• The Protestant tradition values the original languages to get closer to the authors' intended meanings.

"Jesus knew his Bible in Hebrew. That's the Bible that he was raised on. That's the Bible that he had memorized."

• This quote highlights the foundational role of Hebrew scripture in Jesus' upbringing and spiritual life.

"Historically, that's where Protestants have landed, is that the original language is going to get us closest to the meaning that these authors wanted to communicate."

• The Protestant perspective emphasizes the importance of studying the Bible in its original languages to grasp the authentic messages of its authors.

• The transcript mentions a dissertation that mapped differences between Greek and Hebrew versions of the Book of Ezekiel.
• There are approximately 400 differences, indicating significant textual variations that impact the understanding of the Hebrew Bible.

"There are in the ballpark of 400 differences, not a small number, a significant number."

• This quote underscores the substantial number of textual differences between the Greek and Hebrew versions, highlighting the complexity of biblical texts.

• The Aspen forest metaphor is used to describe the interconnectedness and unity of the biblical scriptures.
• The metaphor illustrates how the Bible's diverse texts are rooted in core themes, much like an Aspen forest shares a connected root system.

"If we talk about the metaphor of an aspen forest...I see, I see. This is Jesus, and it's always been Jesus."

• The metaphor signifies the interconnectedness of biblical texts, all pointing towards Jesus as the central figure.

• The Hebrew Bible, also known as the Tanakh or Old Testament, is significant in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Different religious communities interpret the Hebrew Scriptures in varied ways, leading to diverse theological perspectives.

"The first three quarters of the Christian Bible doesn't belong only to Christians. Right. It's the Hebrew Bible, and it's actually also the Scriptures in two other religious traditions."

• This highlights the shared heritage and differing interpretations of the Hebrew Bible across major world religions.

• The Hebrew Bible is seen as anticipating the coming of Jesus, with themes introduced early in Genesis.
• The narrative of the Hebrew Bible is viewed as a precursor to the Gospel accounts of Jesus.

"The seed of the woman is going to destroy evil at its source while being bitten and destroyed by it."

• This quote from Genesis 3:15 is interpreted as a prophecy of Jesus' role in overcoming evil.

• The Gospels present Jesus as the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures' themes, unifying the Bible's narrative.
• Post-Jesus, the Bible is understood as pointing to Jesus as the Messiah and central figure.

"The unifying center, I think, of the whole Bible is Jesus."

• This emphasizes the centrality of Jesus in interpreting the Bible's overarching story.

• The Bible is portrayed as not only a historical text but a means of mediating a personal relationship with Jesus.
• The text has the power to change lives and communities, a testament to its enduring significance.

"The Bible isn't just something you learn about and put in your pocket. It's mediating a real person to us that's waiting for us to respond."

• This underscores the Bible's role in facilitating a personal connection with Jesus, beyond mere academic study.