Nikole Hannah-Jones Knows Why History Feels Dangerous

In a conversation with Wesley of Cannonball, Nikole Hannah-Jones reflects on the impact and backlash of The 1619 Project, which reexamines America's history through the lens of slavery's legacy. Initially met with both acclaim and criticism, the project has sparked widespread debate about historical narratives and race in America. Hannah-Jones discusses the challenges of facing political and cultural resistance, particularly from conservative figures and institutions, and the broader implications for American society. She emphasizes the importance of dissent and historical awareness in navigating current societal tensions and foresees a future focused on bearing witness and advocating for truth in America's complex racial history.

• The 1619 Project was conceived to commemorate the 400th anniversary of the arrival of the first enslaved Africans in North America. It aimed to reframe American history by placing the consequences of slavery and the contributions of Black Americans at the center of the national narrative.
• The project was initially brainstormed by a group of journalists and scholars at the New York Times, led by Nicole Hannah-Jones. The goal was to connect present-day practices and ideas to their roots in American enslavement.
• The project became a cultural phenomenon, capturing public attention and sparking widespread discussion and debate about race and history in America.

"Since January, there's been this effort underway to dismantle the thorny, complicated version of that story, to sanitize it."

• This quote highlights the ongoing struggle over historical narratives, with some seeking to simplify and sanitize the complex history of America, particularly regarding race and slavery.

"The exercise that day was to identify practices and ideas that exist in the present whose roots go back to American enslavement."

• This statement underscores the project's goal to draw direct lines from historical slavery to contemporary American life, revealing the deep-seated influence of slavery on modern society.

• The 1619 Project was released during a time of heightened interest in racial issues in America, coinciding with cultural moments like the release of "Get Out," "Black Panther," and Childish Gambino's "This Is America."
• The project faced backlash from some quarters, including conservative critics and historians who argued that it placed too much emphasis on race over class in American history.
• The backlash was part of a broader cultural resistance to what some perceived as "woke" policies and narratives in various institutions.

"We're basically living in a backlash to that period."

• This quote indicates the societal pushback against the progress and discussions initiated by the 1619 Project and similar cultural phenomena.

"Any policy or program that involves just about any non-white, non-hetero, non-CIS identity has now been rebranded as Woke."

• This statement reflects the labeling and criticism of inclusive policies and narratives as "woke," often used pejoratively by opponents.

• Nicole Hannah-Jones and her colleagues experienced a mix of emotions upon completing the project, including exhaustion, gratitude, and hope for its impact.
• The project's publication was an emotional milestone, symbolizing a significant achievement in bringing a truthful, unflinching narrative to a mainstream audience.

"We fucking did it. Like this thing, which I always say is the blackest thing the New York Times has ever, ever published."

• This quote captures the emotional and cultural significance of the project for Hannah-Jones and her colleagues, marking a historic moment for Black journalism and storytelling.

"I felt I was called, like, I was here to do this thing and had somehow managed with this amazing team to bring it into the world."

• This reflects Hannah-Jones' sense of purpose and fulfillment in leading the project, emphasizing the collaborative effort and its importance.

• The 1619 Project received an overwhelming response, with people eagerly seeking copies and engaging with the content through events and educational settings.
• It sparked a national conversation about the role of slavery in American history and its lasting effects on contemporary society.

"People were baking 1619 cookies. Classroom teachers were decorating their classrooms with the images from the newspaper."

• This illustrates the project's cultural penetration and its role in educational and social discussions, highlighting its impact beyond traditional media.

"It was this period, I think I remember at that time. So this is the end of Trump's first term, and people were wanting to really try to grapple with, you know, how did the country that elects Obama twice elect Donald Trump?"

• This quote situates the project within a broader context of political and social introspection, as Americans sought to understand the nation's complex racial dynamics.

• Some historians criticized the project for its focus on race over class, arguing that it missed the broader point of American history.
• The debate highlighted tensions between traditional historical narratives and new interpretations that challenge established views.

"What if we told you the origin of the United States is not 1776, that if you want to understand America, you can't begin with ideas of liberty. You have to begin with the practice of slavery."

• This provocative statement challenges conventional narratives of American history, emphasizing the centrality of slavery in shaping the nation.

"It actually wasn't really provocative. Historian Edmund Morgan. In America, slavery and freedom begin at the same time."

• This quote supports the project's thesis by referencing established historical scholarship, reinforcing the idea that slavery is integral to understanding American history.

• The struggle over defining American identity is a central theme, emphasizing the complexity of America's historical foundation and identity.
• The period discussed serves as a warning sign, highlighting the importance of understanding America's racial past and its impact on present societal dynamics.

"This wrestling over who gets to define who we are as Americans. What were we founded upon? What is our primary identity? That was an inkling of what was to come."

• This quote emphasizes the ongoing struggle to define American identity and the foundational questions about America's origins and primary identity.

• The events of 2020, including the murders of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd, catalyzed a national reckoning on race and history.
• The 1619 Project played a significant role in shaping public discourse, providing a historical context for understanding contemporary racial issues.
• The period marked a demographic and cultural shift, with increased awareness and activism around racial justice.

"People were responding to the 1619 project, but also there were a lot of great work around this history's racial past that was coming out."

• This quote highlights the public's reaction to the 1619 Project and the broader awareness of America's racial history during the events of 2020.

• The 1619 Project faced significant backlash from political figures, leading to legislative efforts to prevent it from being taught in schools.
• The creation of the 1776 Commission by Donald Trump exemplifies the cultural power struggle over historical narratives.
• The backlash highlights the contentious nature of revising historical narratives to include marginalized perspectives.

"Tom Cotton and Mitch McConnell introduced the saving America History Act. They introduced actual legislation to keep the project from being taught in the classroom."

• This quote illustrates the political efforts to suppress the 1619 Project, reflecting the broader cultural battle over historical narrative control.

• The personal impact of the backlash against the 1619 Project is significant, with the creator facing intense scrutiny and criticism.
• The period was marked by personal growth and a realization of the project's broader significance and impact.
• The decision to disengage from online conflicts reflects a strategic approach to maintaining the project's integrity.

"I had to understand. And let me be clear, there was certainly valid critique of the 1619 project. I've never written anything that was above critique."

• This quote acknowledges the legitimate critiques of the project while emphasizing the importance of maintaining its integrity amidst backlash.

• The period saw a cultural shift, with increased corporate and institutional acknowledgment of racial issues, though often seen as performative.
• The concept of overcorrection is discussed, with the understanding that backlash was inevitable given America's historical tendency toward regression.
• The moment provided an opportunity for marginalized voices to be heard, even if the changes were largely symbolic.

"Most of what happened in 2020 was performative, right? There was no reparations, like none of those kind of societal or structural things that people were asking for."

• This quote critiques the performative nature of many responses to the racial reckoning of 2020, highlighting the lack of substantive structural changes.

• The fear of education and the dissemination of historical knowledge is a central concern, with efforts to suppress educational content that challenges dominant narratives.
• The period is characterized by increased state power and censorship, posing a threat to a truly free society.

"There is a real fear of what happens when people find out it's the education that scares people."

• This quote underscores the fear and danger associated with educating the public about historical truths that challenge established narratives.

• The DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) infrastructure emerged significantly after 2020, primarily as a response to social and racial justice movements.
• There is criticism of DEI initiatives being performative, but they are now seen as necessary to defend against efforts to dismantle civil rights and multiculturalism.
• The conversation highlights the importance of maintaining a society where people of color are not excluded from professions and educational opportunities.

"The DEI infrastructure did arise out of 2020, right? It proliferated out of 2020. And I have been a critic of it because I always felt it was performative and now I have to defend it, because they are."

• The DEI initiatives, initially criticized as performative, are now seen as essential to counter efforts that threaten civil rights and multiculturalism.

• Historical events like Bacon's Rebellion illustrate how racial divisions were strategically used to prevent class solidarity among poor whites and blacks.
• During Reconstruction, attempts to integrate schools for poor whites and blacks were met with resistance, highlighting racial interests over class interests.
• The narrative of poor whites voting against their own economic interests is challenged by the notion that racial identity serves as a form of social currency or "wage."

"The landed white gentry's response to that understanding the sheer numeric power of people who were unfree, no matter their race, and that their common cause was their economic and political status. They gave poor white people something that money could not buy, and they gave them whiteness."

• Whiteness was historically used as a tool to divide and prevent class-based movements by offering poor whites social privileges over blacks.

• Education and learning alongside each other are seen as powerful and sometimes threatening forces for social change.
• The 2020 movements highlighted the potential for cross-racial education and solidarity, despite systemic efforts to maintain racial divisions.

"There's something about learning alongside each other that is just really, you know, white people and black people learning alongside each other that is really terrifying."

• Cross-racial education is a powerful force that can challenge existing power structures and is often met with resistance.

• The 1619 Project aimed to reframe American history by placing the contributions and struggles of black Americans at the center.
• The project sought to inspire both black and white Americans to envision a more inclusive and truthful national identity.

"I was trying to call us into possibility, black Americans into possibility. To say, you know, you are American. Your ancestors did build this, and not just with their brute labor. This country could not exist without us."

• The 1619 Project called for a recognition of black Americans' central role in building the nation and aimed to inspire a more inclusive American identity.

• The discussion reflects on the complexity of patriotism, especially for black Americans who have faced systemic racism yet remain hopeful for America's potential.
• The narrative of a black man proudly flying an American flag serves as a symbol of hope and a call for accountability to America's founding ideals.

"I feel like I wrote this thing and I helped bring this thing into the world that was really about possibility of saying, if we can finally be truthful about who we are and if we actually believe in these creeds, owning up means we can then create this country."

• The act of flying the American flag by black individuals symbolizes hope and a demand for America to live up to its foundational promises.

• The current political climate is marked by legal and social restrictions on discussing race and diversity, leading to a sense of pessimism and dissent.
• The conversation reflects a shift from optimism to a recognition of the ongoing struggle against systemic racism and the need to continue advocating for change.

"I fear, sadly, the rest of my career is going to be in dissent writing mode."

• The speaker anticipates a continued struggle against regressive policies, emphasizing the need for ongoing advocacy and dissent.

• Nicole Hannah-Jones discusses the significance of dissent in societal progress, comparing her work to historical dissenters like Thurgood Marshall.
• Dissent is seen as a voice for future generations, aiming to influence societal change over time.
• The importance of bearing witness and documenting current events is emphasized to prevent historical denialism.

"You compared yourself to being in a situation that a Thurgood Marshall... having gone to the court in 1954, gotten your verdict... and then having the most amazing thing happen. You get appointed to sit on the court, and you have to spend most of your time on the court objecting in dissent to the rulings of your colleagues."

• This quote highlights the unique position of dissenters who, like Thurgood Marshall, continue to challenge prevailing norms even when part of the establishment.

"Dissents are writing for a future society that will take that dissent, that will be ready for that dissent and enact it."

• Dissent is portrayed as a forward-looking act, intended to prepare and influence future societies rather than immediate change.

• There is a growing reluctance in academic and public institutions to engage in discussions about diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI).
• Fear of legal repercussions and political backlash has led to self-censorship and preemptive compliance with perceived restrictions.

"There is a fear, you know, so no court and no law has ever said that DEI or Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, or working on diversity is illegal. It is not illegal. It doesn't have to be."

• The quote illustrates the chilling effect of political and legal pressures on institutions, leading to a reduction in DEI initiatives despite the absence of explicit legal prohibitions.

"The very ideas that we were able to talk about and discuss and have exchange about are now considered illegal."

• This points to a societal shift where open discussions on race and diversity are increasingly viewed as taboo or restricted.

• History is valuable for understanding societal capabilities and providing roadmaps for overcoming current challenges.
• Historical awareness helps in recognizing patterns and preventing the repetition of past mistakes.

"We suffer from historical naivete in this country and denialism, and that's because we really do believe in our mythology in a way."

• The quote emphasizes the importance of historical awareness to counteract national myths and understand the full scope of societal capabilities and pitfalls.

"What history can do for us is it also can show us a roadmap out."

• History is not only about understanding the past but also about using past experiences to navigate current and future challenges.

• There is a temporary surge in the representation of Black artists and cultural narratives in major institutions, but concerns exist about the sustainability of this trend.
• The current visibility of Black artists is linked to recent societal events, such as the George Floyd protests, raising questions about long-term commitment to diversity.

"Every single museum in New York City right now have some major show about some great... featuring some great black artist."

• This quote highlights the current prominence of Black cultural representation in major cultural institutions.

"These shows are in a response to this is George Floyd."

• The quote connects the increase in Black representation in cultural spaces to the societal impact of the George Floyd protests, suggesting this may be a reactive rather than a sustained change.

• The discussion touches on historical cycles of progress and regression, emphasizing the fragility of societal gains in racial equality.
• There is a concern that current progress may be followed by a period of regression, as seen in past historical cycles.

"I feel sad. I feel a deep sadness that what you are seeing and the ability to go to all these museums, that it's going to be some years before we see that again."

• The quote expresses a concern that the current visibility and progress in Black representation may not be sustained and could regress, similar to past historical patterns.

"That W.E.B. du Bois talked about comes down."

• This references the historical concept of the "veil" in W.E.B. du Bois's work, symbolizing the separation and lack of understanding between races, and suggests a potential return to such a state.